How to Craft an Irresistible Offer with Jason Van Orden

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, offer, outcomes, methodology, talk, clients, work, podcast, solution, authority, piece, ideal client, signature, videographers, great, helping, goals, thinking, somatic experiencing, reach

SPEAKERS
Jason Van Orden, Alastair McDermott, Voiceover

Alastair McDermott  00:02

So today I have a brilliant guest for you, somebody I’ve been looking forward to talking to, for maybe a year, a year and a half now, finally got a chance to get together with Jason. We’re going to have a great show for you. We’re going to talk about how to create an irresistible offer, how to craft the offer itself, how to clarify your ideal client, define the desired outcome, and how to articulate your unique methodology, which I think is something that’s super important. That’s what we’re going to get into today.

Voiceover  00:33

Welcome to The Recognized Authority, a podcast that helps specialized consultants and domain experts on your journey to become known as an authority in your field. Here’s your host, Alastair McDermott.

Alastair McDermott  00:44

Today’s episode is brought to you by WebsiteDoctor, which is my other brand alongside The Recognized Authority. WebsiteDoctor is a small web design agency that focuses on creating websites for professional services, experts, consultants, and people in the b2b Professional Services expertise space. And in fact, that’s where The Recognized Authority came from. When I wanted to create a, an add on or focus on the authority building part of the puzzle. WebsiteDoctor still runs in the background. And we’ve been building websites since day one in 2007. In fact, I’ve personally been building websites since 1996. So Been there, done that and bought that T shirt. So if you’re looking for a website for your expertise based business, then check out website doctor.com. and schedule a call with me. I’d love to chat with you, and see if it’s a good fit. The link is in the show notes or you can visit website Doctor all spelled out.com. And now on with the episode. Jason Van orden. It is a pleasure to have you on the show. Thanks for taking the time to talk with us today.

Jason Van Orden  01:43

Yeah, my pleasure. Alastair, thank you so much for inviting me. I’m looking forward to it.

Alastair McDermott  01:47

We had a really great pre chat. About four or five weeks ago, I think, where we talked about what we’re going to talk about. And I think that the one of the most important elements in the whole expertise business is to actually create an offer that your clients really want to buy. And that’s what you’re an expert in. So can you tell me a bit more about how you think about how to craft an irresistible offer?

Jason Van Orden  02:13

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, nobody wants to put an offer out there just to get crickets back. You know, we have such limited time and resources to put into our business. It’d be so disheartening to work hard on something you’re hoping the world will like, just to find out that you missed the mark somewhere. So yeah, absolutely have some ideas to help mitigate that that issue. And so I have a simple framework that I use when designing an offer an irresistible offer. When that you know that people, your audience is going to be eager to sign up for it. And the number one thing, which might seem obvious, but gets overlooked so easily is Who is it for? Right? Now, we talk a little bit about what I mean, there. It’s not just demographically. Who is it for? You might say, for instance, I had a client that I was working with him he he worked with videographers, right. And videographers is a demographic that breaks down into so many different things. It can be hobbyist, it can be somebody who’s a wedding photographer, or a videographer, somebody who is an amateur who wants to get to where they’re doing commercial, I mean, we could just go on and on, it’s worth drilling it down. So one of the most important things is not only to say who the audience is for, but what is it that they want to accomplish, that you can help them to reach and so it needs to be very outcome focused your definition of who that person is. So videographers, who are hobbyists, who, you know, I’ve been in it long enough to start spending some money to get some good gear, and it’s getting a little expensive. So they’d love to figure out how to make a little bit of money with their gear. So now they can invest that back into and perhaps it’ll eventually become a business, right? Or videographers who are already wedding photographer videographer is doing work with clients, but they feel maxed out on how many clients they can work with. So they’re looking for, how do I grow my business from here, if I’m already overloaded working 60 hours a week and can’t just take on more and more clients. So we got two different audiences, both that fall underneath videographer. So the number one thing is who’s the audience? And most specifically, what are the outcomes? So where are they at right now? And what are the outcomes they want to get to in the words, the language that they would use to express those things? It’s very customer centric approach. And you know, I one of the best things you can do here is have conversations with people and listen, and I go and say, you know, hey, I’m thinking about making this course or this thing that you know, it’s gonna be this many weeks and this much price and this is what you’re gonna get. What do you think? Because people don’t often know how to get feedback on it, but it’s like, tell me more about when it comes to this. What would you like to accomplish? Where would you like to be? What do you see as getting in your way? Why is that important to you? What have you tried already? What hasn’t worked well for you? What are you tired of hearing about being told that you need to do you know why do you think you’re still stuck with this? particular goal, you know all those things now you can start building an absolutely irresistible offer on top of that. So that’s number one thing. And number two thing, who is the person? What are the outcomes that they are looking to accomplish? And it looks like this, we’re getting some balloons from a peace symbol or something like, Hey, restring thing. I don’t know, oh, you know what that I don’t know if that’s my FaceTime that’s doing that or because there was a recent Oh, reactions is turned on. I’m sorry. What’s

Alastair McDermott  05:26

awesome, awesome.

Jason Van Orden  05:27

What is the balloons are? You know, Apple? We don’t need the

Alastair McDermott  05:32

okay. Yeah, that’s that’s the joy of life TV. So one thing I noticed there, what you said. So all of those are really open non leading questions, which is really good. So you’re not leading somebody right to an answer, you’re giving a really broad question there, which, which gives them great opportunity for feedback. And I have done this before in the form of asking for asking for feedback, or asking to do an interview for research for a book. And so the idea is, I’m planning to write a book at some point in the future, maybe 612 18 months, and it’s going to be on this general topic. And I love to chat to you as research for that. And what I found is that people are very open to that specifically, people like to help for a book. And actually one of the things that I mentioned, to people who I reached out to us and want to credit everybody in the book, who helped out, so you’ll get a listing in there as well. People like to see their name in print. So that’s another way. So that’s just one thing that I found useful in, in getting that language because I think one of the most important things that you talked about there is the outcome in the language that they use. Because sometimes as experts, we don’t use the right language. We describe things in our industry jargon, and our lingo, not the way that our clients are actually thinking about it.

Jason Van Orden  06:55

Yeah, 100%. And the science has shown it’s called the curse of knowledge that the better we get out of the more expertise we get at doing something, the more we actually distance ourselves, sometimes without realizing it from the nuances of what our ideal audience is thinking, and maybe how the market has shifted, or what are some of the fundamental things they need to understand and realize in order to see, it’s like, Oh, my God, this is the, this is the offer I was looking for, right. And I want to point out that, so there’s four things, we’re gonna go over here. And I’ve only named two of them. And we haven’t even talked about what is the solution yet, which is often where people start is either like, what’s the topic of my course? Hey, I’m gonna make a videography course, how does that sound as an idea, right, that’s just like, that’s not a strong place to start, as opposed to who’s a forehand and the outcomes. The third thing though, that is where we start getting aware of who I want to work with most to I can do my best work with who I want to build this offer, for, I’m aware of the outcomes in the language that they describe. And now you want to think about, okay, what is unique about my process or methodology of getting them from where they’re at right now, over the hurdles that they perceive being in their way, as well as the ones that I know as the expert that they don’t know that they don’t know, but they’re going to need help getting past those hurdles over those hurdles. So we’re building a bridge over this gap to those outcomes that they want. And we want this solution to offer a new, if you will, a new insight, A New Hope, a new way forward. Because often when we are creating an offer for others, it’s possible they’ve been thinking about doing this thing for a while, or they might have even tried working with somebody else, or tried other solutions that have been mentioned over and over again, or they’re tight, you know, and they’ve got their own, you know, worries and current and concerns in terms of the fears of moving forward the potential costs of moving forward the risks of moving forward of maybe failing at this without the other. And they may be carrying the baggage of some failed attempts or being, you know, feeling misled by other people that they worked with. It’s like, hey, they made all these promises, and it didn’t get so you’re up against that. It’s not just showing them I’ve got a solution. And I’m credible and good at what I do. It’s like, hey, despite what’s happened before, despite where you’re at right now, despite your concerns about moving forward and having to deal with certain costs and concerns. What if there was another way, and I’ve got this other way, I’ve got this missing piece, I’ve got a thing that maybe a way of thinking about it or approaching it that you’ve not heard about before. So let me give you a quick example there. I’ve had a couple clients who work in the mental health field, and they help people with all kinds of things but one big one is is you know, anxiety and being an impostor syndrome and not being so self judgy and getting critical, right? All important things. Now, we know about therapy is out there to help with anxiety. Of course, there’s you know, meditation has been shown to help with anxiety. There’s, you know, sometimes people they need medication for a little while so they can implement some things and then eventually they might not need the medication like there’s all these solute now, all these different solutions and some people they’re like, no I don’t want to take medication or I’ve done therapy, but not quite gotten to where I want to go. So what is missing? Right? And there’s this so the clients that I’ve one of the clients I’ve worked with in this field, very specifically offer services that are that use something called Cymatics. You know, there’s there’s, like somatic experiencing. So it’s, it’s very body based therapy. And so there’s a screen message behind that, like, well, if if therapy and some of the other modalities are in your you’ve struggled to get meditation working for you aren’t getting you where you want to go, well, maybe there’s this other approach as missing piece of learning how to get into your body and experience your body because our body, there’s all this science now that our bodies store anxiety, and, and we’ve got to learn how to like free this stuff up. So that’s an example of this unique methodology, you know, something and it doesn’t have to, it’s not that they she’s the only one in the world doing that. But it’s a methodology that not everybody in the market is talking about. And that for a certain slice of that market, they’re gonna go, oh, wait, I’ve not heard it put this way. Before I wasn’t aware of that. or Now I understand. I thought that was something else, and I understand it better. Okay, now I’m leaning in, tell me more. And then so we call that the signature method. And one key piece of that is that what is different about it, which I call the remark ability factor, but then the other pieces of that signature method are what what are the milestones that you guide people through on the way to achieving those outcomes, we want those to be meaningful milestones that they clearly see how they connect to the outcome that they want. And they can, you know, recognize and celebrate the progress as they’re going along. And, and then you’ve, you’ve organized that in such a way, it’s like, hey, well, here are the steps or the pillars like you could put it up there as like a diagram that if you were talking to the ideal person and saying, Okay, I understand you want to get here, but you’re worried about these gaps, I think I’ve got something that can help you, you could put that up on the screen and say, Well, I’ve got my such and such method, it doesn’t have to be method at the end. But like I’ve got my scalable genius method is something that I use with clients to help them to create offers that scale without overloading their time, and energy. So you know, you give that a name you brand it, it becomes this thing that sets you apart. So taught, you know, this show is all about establishing authority. Well, one way to establish that authority and credibility, just like writing a book is to say, hey, I have created a methodology here. And it’s a methodology that nobody else has. Now, it probably pulls from things that some other people might, but this is your unique way of bringing together not only your perspective and insight and experience and expertise, but you know, the best of what’s out there in a way that works for the ideal person that you want to help to those outcomes. So that’s the third piece is what is your signature methodology, which incidentally, spells out the curriculum? It’s like, oh, okay, now you’ve got them. Usually, it’s like, well, you know, we’ve got the modules like, here are the different milestones or steps or pieces or pillars we need to work on. So we’ve got the program the curriculum. And that’s the third

Alastair McDermott  12:49

point, can I dig into that for a moment? Because I know that a lot of people who are listening to this or watching this are very smart people, they’re experts, they also may be a little bit cynical about some of this, because they know that, you know, in order to solve problem X, coming at this from a very software engineering background, but coming at this from that perspective, they say, well, actually, the way that we solve problem X is through these particular steps. And that’s how everybody solves it. So how can I call that my unique signature methodology? When it’s the same way for everybody has to solve this in the same way? That’s something that’s a circle, I find a square I find that hard to circular, or the other way around? Can you talk to me a little bit about how you think about that? Yeah,

Jason Van Orden  13:35

sure. So there are a number of ways to set yourself apart from other experts who seem to be offering a simple, similar methodology. So this client I mentioned, like, she might not be the only person definitely not the only person offering somatic experiencing. Now, one way that she narrowed that in even more was to offer Cymatics, she was specifically working with women, and, you know, working with, you know, often working with women who had, who are looking for ways to do ways to deal with all this, like specific trauma from the past, they’ve reached a certain part of their life. And now they’re, like, realizing these things that I haven’t dealt with are still affecting the adversity. Okay, so we’ve got a little more specific there. Now, other things that make her more specific as like, if you come and take a somatic experiencing class from her, as opposed to someone else, it’s just going to feel different because she’s got, you know, different way of showing up with different kinds of energy maybe, right. So then there’s that piece of what I call resonance. That is important as well, because some people are gonna choose to like, well, I like how you make me feel I like you, how do you make me think or, Hey, we’re both parents. And so that creates a sense of shared meaning between us or, you know, and all those little bits and pieces add up to like, you know, you’re the person you’re the person that I want to hire to take me through this process, not somebody else, even though I could probably find somebody does something similar. Now, you know, taking them coming up with that vailable methodology or that I’m sorry, that signature method that has, you know, a brand name that you’ve given it, that’s just one more piece to say, like, here, I’ve taken time to think this through, and to plan something out and to organize it. And, you know, again, yeah, could somebody like dig into how somebody another experts approach and start pointing and all dissimilarities are where, but they’re not going to do that, at that point. They’re like, okay, you know, we’ve gone through all these like, Okay, you’re speaking my language, the outcomes that I want, you’re giving me this new hope of moving forward in a way that I’ve not quite thought it in a different way than I thought about it before. I’m vibing, with who you are as a person. So there’s that resonance there, oh, it looks like you’ve got you’ve really thought this through, you’ve got a process that you’ve guided other people through. And so I can trust that, you know, you’ve got, like, you’ve got a proven container that I can come into, for the purpose of reaching these goals that I want to, so all of these things stack up to just start pointing the arrow at you of like, well, you’re the person, you’re that person for them. So again, it’s not like you have to be, hey, I’m inventing the next iPhone, and that’s going to change the entire industry. Sometimes it doesn’t matter, like taking the time to figure out your voice around the theme, and the language that you use around the thing and the specific population that you serve best related to that thing. And all of these things add up to your unique solution for a segment of the 8 billion or whatever people in the world and can make a great living and have a great impact helping that slice of the world.

Alastair McDermott  16:27

There’s three things I think are super important for having this and, and so I’m a big fan of actually having this kind of signature methodology, because I think that first of all, it shows that you’re not approaching this in an ad hoc way. So smart people who are experts in their field can quite often rock up and just look at the situation and instantly know what the solution is. But our clients typically like to know that we’re following some kind of process. So knowing that there is some kind of process there, you know, even if the process is different, just there’s the value of that. The other thing I think about this is that what we sell, in terms of expert consulting, transformative services, is usually intangible, and it’s usually quite, it’s quite transformative, which means it’s quite risky. And because of that, anything that we can do to make it more tangible, to make it less invisible, helps, because it helps to solidify it in there in the prospective clients mind as Okay, there is a there’s a real thing here I can kind of latch on to. And, and then there’s the third part is, if you brand it, and it’s unique, then you can actually trademark that and you know, it becomes IP as well. And you can, you know, you can make a whole, you can make a whole intellectual property brand, a series of books or videos or training around that. So I think that like that’s, you know, those are really solid reasons why you might want to do that. So I think that’s a really important factor. And I still find it difficult to square that up with well look, the right way to approach this is the same way as 99% of other firms in the sector are doing because like this is the solution. But maybe there’s some unique angle that you can add on it yourself to just make it that much more unique. That’s, that’s how I think about this anyway.

Jason Van Orden  18:18

And there’s probably I mean, even as much as like, well, this is just the way to do it. I mean, usually there are different permutations of a path to get there. And in fact, I think it’s really important to organize your methodology as frameworks as opposed to a formula because, like, for instance, I’ve got a framework for helping people to design and launch and fill a group program. Right. And, you know, it could be argued, there’s just one way to do that. But still, my approach is just going to feel different than than somebody else’s approach as well. Like, for instance, I put a real focus, I’m not the only one it is it does this but one thing that do put a focus on that I others who teach us don’t necessarily do is doing some really pop proper customer discovery at the beginning of the whole process. So we really, what’s one of the things I was talking about, really extract the right language, and double check our curse of knowledge against which we’re assuming we want to create right? Now, I’m not the only person who does that. But it is one thing and I have my own approach to doing that. Now, that’s just one of I don’t know, 20 pieces, or 30, or whatever it my entire process. But everything’s broken down into frameworks, because different people show up with different resources, different amount of time, maybe slightly different goals of why they want to create the course and I want my process to be able to work for each of them. Right. And so, you know, some people show up and they’ve already got they’ve done, they’ve got a really good grasp of who the audience is and what they need, but they don’t know how to organize what’s in their head. So we zoom in more on that part of the process and spend more time they’re developing their their signature method, but not only you know, is a little bit different from what others do. But even in within your own offer. You want there to be some of that flexibility and not that it’s like oh, I can help this person over here as well as this person with a goal that’s completely on the other end of the day. You know, the spectrum, but that, you know, there’s still that that flexibility if the goals vary slightly, or people are slightly different place when they come into the program. And so it’s like, yes, there’s a methodology. And because like you said, it is important, people want to know that you’ve thought it out. And I can also say, Look, we’re gonna build this on a foundation that has, you know, that 80%, that’s the principles that have been proven when I’m missing my 20 years of experience, and me seeing what’s working today, etc. And then there’s that other 20%, that’s got to be based on who you are, and your vision, your values, your strengths, you know, you’re a great facilitator, awesome, your program is gonna look different than somebody who’s maybe not as strong of facilitation, but maybe just excels for whatever reason it making, like specific tools, that that helps them make the process smoother. So it’s also like baking your strengths into it. You know, I love doing my programs as group calls with facilitation in a certain way. And then other people like that might not be the way that they like to show up. So their offer, you know, might be delivered in a slightly different way. So you know, all of those variables, when you put them together, that’s why it ends up being like, Oh, this is going to be a very different experience working with this person through this offer, as opposed to somebody else through, you know, through through their offer.

Alastair McDermott  21:16

Yeah, yeah. Okay, I want to recap a little bit. So we’re talking about creating an irresistible offer. And so we need to figure out who we’re targeting. And that who in terms of what is the, what is the goal or outcome or transformation that they want to accomplish? Because it’s not just who in terms of demographics, we need to nail that down? And then we’re talking about figuring out so what is that desired? So who they are, what’s the desired outcome? And then putting our own unique methodology and framework around that? Is there any is there any? Is there anything I’ve missed? In in in that summary that we’ve talked?

Jason Van Orden  22:01

Oh, no, that’s great summary, those are three things so far. And the signature method,

Alastair McDermott  22:06

is there a fourth one in that list? Yep.

Jason Van Orden  22:09

So the fourth one now is, what is the experience you’re going to wrap that in and deliver it with, right. So on the one end of the spectrum, you could have something like, I’m just going to make this as a digital course that people can buy, when I’m sleeping at night, go through at their own pace, and hopefully get the outcome. Now, I think we all know that there are a lot of things where that somebody going through digital course on their own is not an efficient path to transformation and change. It can work really well for some highly specific things that you want, you’re like, if somebody you know, I don’t know, if you had a client who’s like, hey, I need help, while watching my really specific digital course, that’s going to walk them to the tutorial, and here’s how to get your email list set up and online, hey, that might work great. But it’s like, Hey, I’d like to have help. procrastinating less, or, you know, writing my book or something bigger, it’s like, having access to you and others is going to be critical to actually reaching that outcome. And so on the other end of the spectrum is, you know, higher, higher access to you. And you know, that could be the point of you’re working with them one on one, and it’s very bespoke. Now, that’s very time intensive for you to be all over it all the way over on that end of the spectrum. And so it’s about finding, what is that middle ground? Again, given your ideal client, the outcomes, you’re delivering your strengths and stuff? So I really break down the experience into a few different variables. So there are three three pieces of this puzzle, how do they get access to you, and support from you or from team members and people? You know, because some people have programs and they’ve taught, they trained other coaches to be able to also teach their methodologies? When so how do they get support from you? Or the people that are representing you? How do they get access to each other? You know, is it oh, there’s a we’ve got a Facebook group that you’re is like, hey, you know, we we meet regularly and you know, in a mastermind type style, or I facilitate connections in this way in the group, so how do they get access to each other? Because that’s a key piece of value and support that can be through through an offer? And then how do they get access to and then how they access the information and the knowledge and the tools and the training or any of that that might exist? Right? So is it delivered lot? Is a training done live? Or is it like reverse classroom style, where it’s like, Hey, you’re gonna go watch this module, walk through everything, fill out some worksheets, and then come show up live and that part’s synchronous, and we discuss what you’ve what you’ve done and the in class start part is discussion and questions and feedback and things like that. So there’s a lot of variables that you can tweak there and inside the access to you piece you need to be thinking about you know, is this a done for you offer is this done with you offer as I said, Do it yourself so do yourself is the whole download the digital thing, and I’m just gonna go through it on my own done with you. It’s kind of this middle ground where there’s more support from you or the group rather than say that and then done in turn, but you can also be a one on one or done for us, like, hey, they’re hiring you to write the sales page to go Was there hate the book to create the website or whatever. But, you know, that’s not as much the kind of offer that we’re talking about here. But it’s important to keep that in mind. And that’s the type of person you want to work with, what are they looking for? So some people are like, I don’t want to be part of a group, just give me the tool, and I’ll do it. And some people are like, no, no, no, I want to work with you one on one, I don’t you know, so you need to know, going back to the customer research and stuff, what is it that they’re looking for, in terms of the experience? So that’s the piece of how do you deliver it. And I just want to one more thing I want to point out, there’s like we separated signature method and the experience because when you’ve organized your knowledge as a signature method, and you’ve got all the pieces of the puzzle, well, now you can slice and dice that method for different offers, or deliver that methodology in different formats. So what I mean by that, for instance, you can say you could have the, hey, come work with me in this group offer for six months, I’m going to take you through this, this process from A to Z, or it could be the, hey, you know what, this is a three day intensive weekend version of this, that we’re going to take you through or it could, right, but it’s all the same methodology. Or you could say, Hey, I’m just going to take off this one chunk here. And I’m going to turn that into a digital course that people can go through. And then there’s other options to continue through the methodology otherwise, but it becomes so much easier to, to to rapidly create or test different offers or tweak them or to serve a couple of different types of customers that you might have, if you if you think about those variables as two separate things, the signature method and the experience that you deliver it through. And so that’s the the fourth piece is what is the experience?

Alastair McDermott  26:38

So let me ask you, then, where does pricing and branding and marketing copy come in? Like, like, at what point do you I mean, I’m guessing it’s after you’ve, you figure out what what all the details are? But how does that fit in the mix for you? Yeah,

Jason Van Orden  26:56

so typically, when I’m working with with clients on this, once we’ve got those four pieces, at least at a high level figured out, then you know, we can start attributing, like putting a price on it. And the price, I mean, two of the biggest variables for the price, or I mean, the the biggest variable is what is the value of that outcome to the ideal client that you’re helping through this offer. So often, it ends up getting priced on like how much stuff they’re getting, or how many calls there are, how much of my time they get and searcher that might be in there. But look, if you can give somebody a solution that’s worth to their life or business, you know, several $1,000 in the coming months or a year, and you can deliver a ticket them through it in five minutes. For some reason, like who’s gonna complain by they’re gonna be like, awesome, great, like, they don’t care whether it’s five minutes, or five hours, or five months, if you can get them to the, if you can still get them to the goal. Printing starts coming in after we’ve gotten a little clearer, especially about the, the experience and and well, I mean, those four variables all together help us point to the price. And then you know, we’re of course, we’re thinking about messaging and marketing, as we go through I mean, we go we return to the customer discovery, to see the kind of language that they’re using, we want to make sure we use that language inside of our marketing, we return to I mean, one of the key pieces was, okay, well, what is that remark ability factor, we want to make sure that that’s infused into the front end of the front end of the messaging, or if people don’t quite understand that my solution, like if they don’t know what somatic experiencing is, well, I need to meet them where they’re at first. And the messaging that I’m hearing is, I’m worried about anxiety, but you know, therapy is not doing what I need to do. And so it’s like, Okay, we got to meet him there, the language has got to be the content that we use to attract an audience at the front of the customer journey. The positioning that we use for this offer needs to meet them there. And then the customer journey can kind of take them through the rest of understanding, you know, well, here, here’s, here’s what maybe you didn’t realize about solving this problem. Here’s another thing to consider, here’s why you might be struggling with this. And let me present you with the solution that I think is best for what you’re what we’re talking about, you’re trying to do here, so that by the time you do put the offer in front of them, they realize, oh, this is the solution that I’ve been that I’ve been looking for. But yeah, the the marketing and and sales aspect of it are influenced by those four things. But those are if you come and take my course, for instance, like the first half of the course is all about those four things. And then the latter half of the course is let’s unveil the marketing and the and the attraction and enrollment piece of the puzzle.

Alastair McDermott  29:25

Right, right. Can you dig into remark ability for me a little bit? Just tell me how you think about that? Yeah,

Jason Van Orden  29:31

absolutely. So remark ability factor is so going back to that idea of when you’re when you’re trying to reach a certain audience, you’ve got to get through that that jadedness or that that lack of lack of potential self confidence that they have with where they’re at or and that all comes by saying, Well, I’ve got this this other approach that maybe you haven’t thought of. So some good ways to arrive at that. This is when I’m working with clients on this work. We’ll do is based on the customer discovery and also based on what they just understand from working closely with people over over time. You know, we start asking things like, Okay, well, what are the main obstacles that they think are in their way? And how does your offer I can immediately remove those and make them non issue or mitigate those obstacles for them. So for instance, if, okay, I’ve got another client that I’m working with who helps men who are you know, often often in tech and stuff and really smart. But communication skills, relationship skills aren’t quite there, the awkward, they’re socially awkward, and they’re having trouble connecting with women having relationships, like they want that so badly in their life, but they’re not sure how to arrive at it, right? And so if it just comes down to like, hey, you know, I’m going to help you land those second dates and that dream partner in life instead, like, they’re thinking, Yeah, but I’m socially awkward. I don’t know what to say, when I talk to women. I hate going on dating apps that I don’t want somebody else to tell me I need to go on another dating app. Right? So But if his remark ability factors, like hey, without having to go on dating apps, even if you’re socially awkward, in fact, we’re going to show you how to turn your nerdiness into a superpower. Because there is like, there are aspects that are that are fascinating to win or feel safe, or like you don’t need to be like what you see the typical Oh, this is what’s going to attract women in order to find the person, particularly that you probably want to reach, right? So it’s helping them see it’s like, oh, okay, despite where I’m at, and what I think is holding me back and what I’ve tried to do and work before, there actually is hope for me to move forward here. So identifying those obstacles and how you your offer, and signature method can mitigate them as important. A second one that’s important is like, Okay, I call those the obstacles. And then there’s the overstays. What are they tired of hearing? What are they tired of? Like everybody’s saying they got to do and they’re like, I don’t want to do it that way. I tried, and it didn’t work for me, or it’s just like, that’s not my style, or what if that? Right? So, you know, like, there are plenty people who might have nutrition goals, whether that’s to like change their energy, or to lose weight, or whatever their goals might be. And they might be like, really tired of being told they need to go on a low carb diet, they’re, like, look like that just is not sustainable for me. So what’s the other way forward here, you know, and if you have a sort of like, in fact, I have a client that’s in this space, right. And one of the unique things that we’re focusing on now is a lot of people don’t realize the role that cortisol and stress is playing in preventing them from moving forward, right. And so that’s where we’re coming in and saying, like, hey, maybe there’s this thing you haven’t thought of. And if we attack that, it’s going to open up this new level of possibilities for you to move forward toward towards the goals that you want. So So what are the obstacles? What are the overstays that they that they are tired hearing of? And so like, what’s that different approach that you can offer? So those are a couple of them? You know, there’s other things we can go into humming another thing I say is like, my clients is like, what’s really upsetting you that keeps getting set, and you don’t think of serving people well out there in the marketplace? And how can we use that to position your, your offer? Opposite from or different from what everybody else is saying, you got to do? You know, if you’re in a business, you’re tired of launching to fill your courses and find clients, you’re like, I’m tired of having to these big launches every other month, it’s exhausting. Well, then you’re going to be really attracted to somebody’s like, hey, what if we could put together a way where it just in a more evergreen, authentic, natural way, you’re just patiently inviting people month to month and bringing people in without having to do these exhausting launches? Come on in and I’ll show you, I’ll start showing you laying out for you a path towards that kind of a reality. So that’s what we’re looking for in terms of the remark ability factor.

Alastair McDermott  33:47

Awesome answer. Thank you. Now, I have another question. And I’m gonna try and give some give some background to this. So I have seen it myself. And I know that other people have seen where we’re trying the the offer that we have is something that we’re we want to kind of we want to hide the mechanism, or hide what it is on till later in the sales process, because we feel like I feel one of my offers that people are going to reject it instantly off the bat. And it’s only when we talk about it that they say oh, yeah, that actually might work for me. So I don’t know. Have I given you enough to work with there? Yeah, I

Jason Van Orden  34:30

think I mean, I think so in this this is this is a key element that relates to a lot of what we’ve we’ve talked about it goes back to that mistake sometimes of talking about the solution too soon, and that’s not that you’re trying to like bait and switch people right but what it is like there are times where like if you came out and just said Well hey my my my trying to think of a good example here. But what I hear you saying is like there’s often assumptions or misconceptions baggage

Alastair McDermott  34:59

that goes on like you I can give you a very specific example. Yeah. And that is one. So I help people in my world, I help people to build authority by creating content. And I also help them to generate leads by starting conversations with new potential clients. And so one mechanism or vehicle I found to do that is to have them start a podcast. And so they’re not initially thinking, I want to start a podcast, they’re thinking, I want to build authority, and I want to generate leads. And what I found is kind of, I actually can do this through the side door, that when I interview my clients, we create a video and we can then repurpose great lots of content out of that, that can actually make for a podcast episode. And then now that they’ve got a podcast, they can actually reach out to potential clients and say, Hey, I’d love to invite you on my platform and have a conversation with you. We’d be interested in and people like that as you know, your platforming somebody. But they’re not thinking initially, hey, I want to start a podcast that doesn’t go through their mind. And so I talk to them about the building authority and generating leads. But I kind of feel like I’m being a bit disingenuous, because I think that, hey, we actually could turn this into a great podcast if you want to go down that route. But I don’t really talk about the podcasting aspect upfront. How do you think about that? Yeah,

Jason Van Orden  36:20

I think I can understand why why you can feel it can feel disingenuous. Now, part of is just the human psychology of yeah, if you were to say upfront, hey, I’m gonna help you start a podcast to get more clients, they immediately have ideas about what that means, right? And you haven’t had an opportunity to say like, here, all these other ways that this can benefit your business, here’s how this can be easier than maybe you’ve thought of here’s why I actually think that this is one of the most effective medium media that you can use for transmitting your message, you know, to make that stack that case up for them to go like, Oh, well, I hadn’t realized that. I thought that before. Now, here’s one key thing to keep in mind in this. And this goes back to that first thing, which is who’s the ideal client is making a decision, okay, you could decide, okay, I want to work with people who they already know, they want to launch a podcast, they’re just looking for the right person to guide them through it with a methodology, it makes sense to them. Now, that doesn’t sound like what you’re going for. But somebody could make that decision. Another decision could be like, Okay, I’m gonna go for the person who’s like, it’s crossed their mind to launch a podcast. And if the right case is made to, then they make a look. And maybe that’s something I should go ahead and prioritize, because it sounds like relative to these other things I might do, this is the one that’s gonna get me closest in a way that I would enjoy to finding new clients and having conversations with the right people and elevating my authority, etc. And then there’s some people like that hasn’t even crossed their mind. Because they might have these misconceptions about or they just haven’t even thought of these enough to it in that, you know, they know they need to be creating content online, they know they want to be reaching more people in an effective way that allows them in an authentic and compelling manner to communicate what they do so well and connect with the right people. And so if you can talk about that, and then you know, say, hey, one of the best ways I’ve seen to do this is podcasting. You know, now you’ve opened them up to what you believe might be absolutely the best solution for them. Now, here’s where I think it would get disingenuous is when you start saying like, well, here’s the missing piece. And this is absolutely why you failed before. And no wonder and if you’re missing out on this, then you’re totally missing out. You better hurry. Like it’s like all that pressure. And trying to you know, cuz some people, you’ll get to that point in the case where like, Hey, I learned a lot from the Alastair, but I don’t actually still don’t think that this is the right approach. But I learned a couple things. Or maybe those still stick around until they’re like, actually, now this is landing different. Maybe it isn’t the right time. But there are some people who are going to be I’ve never thought about that I didn’t realize that I could stack up all these different ways of getting an ROI for my podcast. It’s not just this, oh my god, I gotta come up with an episode every week. But it’s like, wow, this is an opportunity to reach out to people I might not otherwise have had the courage or reason why to reach out to them and connect to them to invite them onto my plan, like so helping them realize some of those things then brings them to, and then this and then you’re I’m sure you’re still saying, you know, if this is you, and you want to do this, and this and this, and this appeal to you, this is the solution that I think and at that point, you know, the right people are gonna go like, okay, cool. How can you help me with this? Right. And so, you know, I think it’s, it’s when we try to convince people that, you know, this is the solution rather than still honoring and allowing them to make the decision that’s best for them in the end, you know, while we’re making our best case, that’s the difference, I think, between being disingenuous, or, you know, applying pressure that just doesn’t need to be there to sell something

Alastair McDermott  39:40

effectively. Yeah, I like that. And it’s, it’s, I mean, I came through this through the side door of, I’m using my, the fact that I run a podcast and I’m using those interview skills to help people to create content because a lot of people want to create content, but they don’t have time to sit down at a keyboard and start to type. But if you ask and I For the right questions, they can talk for hours about their expert topic. And so it’s a great way to create content. And then I was thinking, well, actually, we can we can repurpose this back into a podcast, which then defeats the real problem of building authority, which is that it’s a slow burn thing, and it doesn’t get clients straightaway. Well, if now if we’ve got a podcast as a platform, we can invite our ideal clients on. And now Now we’re actually deal purposing, this and now we’re now we’re building authority on generating leads, which is what I found to be like, the biggest barrier to building authority is just how long it takes. But what I don’t want to do is I don’t want to compete with every other podcast production company who’s out there on the planet, because there’s a lot of them. And I’m looking for those people who are specifically looking to build authority. And so that’s the context that I’m talking to here. And that’s why I kind of felt disingenuous, but I didn’t even want to talk about podcasts or mentioned the word podcast on the sales page for this, it can you see what I

Jason Van Orden  40:59

mean? I think that’s just I think that’s just smart. And it’s not to say that, you know, you don’t, once you have them, and also bring that forward and say, Hey, this is where we’re heading. And you know, you know, give me give me if what I’ve said so far is compelling to you give me a chance to lay out the rest of the case. I mean, you don’t say those exact words, right, but so you know, it’s not like you hide it for them for like two weeks of content, you’re like, guess what surprise, the magic strategy is podcasting. And they’ve invested all this time. And like, really, that’s what this was. But, you know, it’s like a bait and switch, right, that feels like a bait and switch, but that you’re, you know, you’re just laying out your meeting, one of the most important quotes in marketing and advertising is always into the conversation already going on in the mind of the customer. And that’s from Robert Collier, I think it’s from like the 30s. He wrote a, you know, a book on advertising a number of other things as well, but and I would say, Look, we’re, we need to beat meet people over that we need to have that empathy that gets infused in so that they see it’s like, oh, you understand where I’m at? Where I want to get to what I’m worried about what’s getting in my way and using to have something to to, you know, to offer that I’ve not heard before. So yeah, let me let me give you some like time and attention, so I can understand what it is that you’re proposing here.

Alastair McDermott  42:14

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for digging into that as a kind of like a little mini case study for me. We’ve got three minutes to top the hour. So I want to ask you rapid fire, what is the number one tip that you would give to somebody who wants to build their authority?

Jason Van Orden  42:28

The number one thing would be, which actually relates to what I think one of the other questions is find your voice. And here’s a great book to help you with that louder than words. I don’t know if it’s showing up backwards. But it’s louder than words by Tyler Henry, it might be showing it backwards for people out there. But louder than words by Todd Henry harness the power of your authentic voice. And so often it’s like, what does that mean to find? Like, it’s so important, it relates to that remark, ability factor showing up with confidence, so many things, and he actually has a good framework for helping you do that. Find Your Voice figure out what it is you really want to say and what’s different about it.

Alastair McDermott  42:59

I love it. Um, we’ll have links to that in the show notes. Well, Jason, we’re at the top of the hour. Thank you so much, Jason Van orden, for coming on the show. Can you tell people where they can find you if they want to learn more?

Jason Van Orden  43:08

Yeah, absolutely. So if any of this has resonated with you, you can either I’m always on LinkedIn postings, and go follow me over there. I’ve got a newsletter there, or Jason Van orden.com. I’ve got a newsletter there as well. And I frequently do workshops where we dig into this stuff and actually take action on some of these different pieces. So if that stuff resonates with you, we’d love to interface with you and either of those places.

Alastair McDermott  43:31

Awesome, and we will link to all of that in the show notes. Jason’s LinkedIn is definitely worthwhile following. Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and chat with us today.

Jason Van Orden  43:41

Yeah, my pleasure, great conversation. I appreciate it. Thanks, Alastair.