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How to Get High-Ticket B2B Consulting Clients Using LinkedIn with Kathleen Celmins

June 5, 2023
The Recognized Authority Podcast Cover

The podcast that helps experts & consultants on the journey to becoming a recognized authority in your field, so you can increase your impact, command premium fees, work less hours, and never have to suffer a bad-fit client again!.

In this episode of The Recognized Authority, Alastair McDermott chats with Kathleen Celmins about LinkedIn outreach, and why experts often don’t get paid a premium.

Kathleen shares her strategy for LinkedIn outreach and gives a walkthrough detailing specifically how she does it.

You’ll also learn why experts often struggle to receive fair compensation and Kathleen shares her solution to this issue.

Don’t miss this jam-pack episode!

Show Notes

Guest Bio

Kathleen Celmins, the founder and CEO of The Well-Paid Expert, has more than 15 years of experience in the online marketing world – in both large Fortune 500 companies and start-ups. That means she knows what will work and what won’t when it comes to earning more money as a service provider, content creator, or coach. She’s done it over 100 times for clients.


linkedin, work, referrals, people, talking, outreach, conversation, sales, business, targeting, message, profile, sending, network, years, paid, hard, agency, sell, content

Alastair McDermott, Kathleen Celmins


Alastair McDermott  00:03

Hello, and welcome to The Recognized Authority. I’m your host, Alastair McDermott. And I’m delighted today to say that today my guest is Kathleen Celmins. Kathleen, you are very welcome to the show.


Kathleen Celmins  00:15

Thanks so much for having me, Alastair.


Alastair McDermott  00:16

So today we’re going to talk about LinkedIn outreach on LinkedIn in general. And I think we’ll probably get into a bit of content creation and things like that, because I think we’re both kind of content nerds. Now, before I do that, I just want to mention or let the listener know, I was introduced to you by my good friend, Alistair McBride, who is also a podcaster. He had you on his podcast. And when I heard that you that, you branded yourself as “the well paid expert”, I immediately said, Okay, I gotta have Kathleen on the show. So it was the branding 100%, can you tell me what being a well paid expert means to you? And quite quite, that was so important you put that as your brand.


Kathleen Celmins  00:58

Because so many thank you for that be. So I was using my name as my brand. But as we talked about offline, my last name is hard to say spell pronounce, wasn’t a great jumping off point to building, a building a web presence around. And so I am surrounded by some of the smartest people I’ve ever met. I can’t even believe like how many bright and brilliant people are working online, it seems like they all are. I don’t know, maybe they’re maybe they’re in labs and stuff, too. But there’s some geniuses online. And what I keep finding is that they’re they don’t need help with their expertise. They need help getting paid well for their expertise. And I thought, well, I can help with that. I can help experts get paid really well. And so as someone who’s been on the internet for a decade, is want to do immediately I checked to see if the domain was available. And courses. Exactly, exactly. Well, well paid. isn’t? That’s that was like $60,000. So but the well paid expert was available for a lot less.


Alastair McDermott  02:16

So let me ask you, then, why do so many experts who are great at what they do find it difficult to get paid? Well, to earn a good living for what they do. I


Kathleen Celmins  02:28

think it’s because they have to do all the things in their business, especially when you’re starting out, you’re solopreneur. And you’re building as a solopreneur. So you’re not only pitching the jobs, you’re doing all that work, and sending out the invoices and reconciling the accounts and doing your marketing and doing your sales. And it’s really hard to do all of those things. Well, but the thing that you can’t outsource, at least not at first, at least not till you have a proven track record is your sales process. Because especially when you’re small, you are the product. I think that’s why it’s hard. Because what you want to say is, look, I went to college, I have a bunch of experience I’ve worked with look at all these logos I’ve worked with, trust me. But every time you say that, you’re wondering like, should they trust me? I don’t know. You know, and so if you end up talking yourself out of good deals, when you when you fear when you think of sales as pickpocketing, which is I think what a lot of creators do is they think well, I mean, this thing should sell itself. Well. It’s not heroin.


Alastair McDermott  03:46

Yeah. I’ve heard that a lot. I’ve said it myself. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.


Kathleen Celmins  03:54

I mean, this thing is so good. It should sell itself like okay, but so then so when when I work with people, I usually have to like, remind them that they are they have to like almost physically, like put on a different pair of shoes or wear a different hat like product team has done. Sales team is working now. And yeah, it’s really, really hard to disconnect that because we take rejection so personally, because we created the thing. So if you don’t want the thing I created then you’re rejecting me and I lose value as a human. And that’s like a terrible mental space to be in like, we got, we didn’t get into entrepreneurship to beat ourselves up all the time and yet here we are.


Alastair McDermott  04:35

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So okay. Now I know that you talk about high-ticket b2b consulting clients. So I saw a headline on your website, how to get high ticket b2b consulting clients. So there’s a couple of things that that says to me, so the so you’re talking to people who are experts And I guess that like me, you, you typically think of them as consultants, even if maybe they don’t. And then also, the high ticket b2b, that’s typically for me, when I’m talking to people in this kind of area, that’s usually where the most margin is because the most value is available there. Is that why those are the people who you want to work with?


Kathleen Celmins  05:21

Yeah, because I believe that every expert who I come across has as much knowledge and experience as say, a highly skilled surgeon. And those surgeons are very, very well paid for what they do they, especially if you, if you break it down by the hour, right. So the, the idea that, like a surgeon is not going to give not going to sell a $27 eBook about how to take out your own appendix or, okay, so the analogy sort of falls apart. But so too, should should you value your expertise at as high of a level as someone who’s been through med school.


Alastair McDermott  06:09

Yeah, and, you know, I’m sure there’s people listening or watching this thinking, Well, you know, I couldn’t, I couldn’t value myself like that. But if you’ve got, you know, if you’ve got, if you’ve got graduate level degree already, and then you know, you’ve got 20 years experience, you probably do have that level of experience and knowledge. And if, like, if you’re smart, and there’s a lot of smart people out there, then you probably probably do so. But, but it’s still, like you say, there’s so many people who are in this situation who are just not earning. So let me ask you, then what’s, what’s the solution to that?


Kathleen Celmins  06:47

Well, charge more money to increase your rates. But again, if you’ve been at this a while, a lot of your business is referral based. And what happens with referrals is that very frequently, if you’re not in charge of the referral process, you’re not feeding the people exactly what to say, what tends to happen is, and you better book this person now, because they’re under charging. And you stick with you stay at that level. So you need to if you need to charge more than you need a way to connect with people who don’t already know you who don’t already know someone who does know you. And that’s where LinkedIn comes in.


Alastair McDermott  07:28

Yeah, I think that there’s some other things because I like to pick a fight with referrals, because I hate dependency on referrals. And, and I see I see it happening all the time. I think that one thing that can happen with referrals is if you start to get into a network of people who are low value clients, they will refer you other people who are low value clients, because that’s who they network with. And what happens then is that starts to convince you that what you’re doing is low value. And you’ve got this stream of people coming to you demanding lower prices, who are effectively proving that to you. So that’s, that’s one thing. Another thing that can happen with referrals, I think is a bit of a negative is, when you have a dependency on on referrals, the pool of people who’s referring to you is probably shrinking all the time, as people change jobs or retire even. I’ve seen that with, with some of my older clients, where people who used to refer to them have now retired, they want to keep working, but but the people who used to refer them business are no longer they’re out in the yacht now. So so your pool of referrals is shrinking as well. So I think that referrals can be can be dangerous to depend on for that reason.


Kathleen Celmins  08:40

They’re also not super reliable, right? Like, and that, you know, they they’re great for if you don’t have if you’re if you’re working for yourself, and you don’t know, if you don’t have a predictable way to bring in your next client, then yeah, lean on referrals. But keep it in the back of your mind that you need to have something else. So that when you go up market or when you pivot your offer, or when everybody you’ve ever known has hired you for the thing that you do, there is there is a limit to it. And so the getting getting up to a different level means networking with new people. And if referrals work for you, at your current rate, they’ll work for you, when you double your prices, too. You just need to get into a different group. So, but it’s tough, because if you’ve relied on referrals, and you can look at your balance sheet and say, Well, it’s been a pretty good year or a couple of years or whatever, however long it’s been that that referrals have been working for you. You kind of need to be pushed into charging more and networking with different people.


Alastair McDermott  09:49

Yeah, the I think that what one thing that you said there just just made me think of the idea of a fire lighter. I don’t know anybody watching this has ever actually lit no fire. So here we we light a fire by you by a fire lighter, you put it and you build your wood or your turf, your peat or your coals around that, and that that gets the thing lit. And once it’s lit, then it’s going to going to be fine. And maybe everybody listening to this knows exactly what that is. And I’ve just explained this to them like their six year old.


Alastair McDermott  10:21

But anyway, the the idea is that referrals are absolutely necessary at the start. But I think that once you get going, that’s when you need to start moving away if you want to keep growing. Now at the same time, I know that there are some people in some businesses who can absolutely survive and have a brilliant income just purely on referrals. But also it depends. Some people, the way that they do referrals is different than the way other people think about referrals. And some people have a lot more strategy behind that. But I don’t want to get into that part. I want to get into the part that you’re talking to people about, which is which is people who don’t already know you. So can you tell me a little bit about that part? Like how do you do that?


Kathleen Celmins  11:04

Yeah, so, so my example I’ve been doing done for you. Marketing work for the last decade, behind the scenes, built a bunch of websites did a bunch of things in digital marketing, most recently had a content marketing agency that was focused on video and content production and repurposing all that. And what I found is that that’s not where my skills are. It’s not and again, like half my business came from referrals, because we were doing great work for people. It was coming there, people were getting their their content fast, and it was ranking. And it was you know, it was doing all the things that content supposed to do for you. But I didn’t have good margins, I had a huge team. And I needed to pivot. Once I shattered that agency into something that really aligned with how I want to show up in business, I’m much more an idea person, a brainstorming person, big picture, here’s what you should do, and then just map it out for them and have them do it. So that’s a coach that’s transitioning into coaching. But once I shuttered the agency, I realized like, I don’t have any referral business anymore. The the people that were hiring us for content, were corporations, people that I’m working with as a coach are solopreneurs. And so I had to lean into LinkedIn, and develop a strategy to bring in better conversations on LinkedIn, because I didn’t have time for all the other proven strategies to work for me. Yes, I still do content marketing, but that doesn’t bring a client today, outreach does, and meeting new people and meeting b2b people on LinkedIn was the best thing for me.


Alastair McDermott  12:51

So how do you make that work? And how do you make that work in a way that isn’t soul destroying or spammy?


Kathleen Celmins  12:59

Right. So the first thing to think about is that LinkedIn is not a social media network. It’s not a competitor to Instagram. If it is, it’s losing. But it’s a sales enablement platform. And as such, when you look at it that way, your profile becomes a sales page. And so what your profile ought to do is convince people booked in sales, I say you want to get to know as fast as possible. So if your profile repels people, that’s what you want, because it’s also going to attract people.


Kathleen Celmins  13:35

So you start with your profile you, you work there, and the tagline is tough, because as you said before, I’m a content dork. So I’m very good at writing something 4000 words, but the tagline. You have to get it right in short, so you have to you have to iterate. And you know, some of it’s super easy, like make sure you have a picture of yourself that’s not from your brother’s wedding 10 years ago, with him cut out, you know, but but some of it’s a little bit more challenging because you’re given this about page and are you supposed to treat it like a resume or treat it like a bio? How far back do you go? Like, are we talking about like, the born in a log cabin in Illinois, like, are they doing how far back? That’s Abraham Lincoln, but still, but so you take your take a look at your profile from a sales perspective, because reaching out so the LinkedIn strategy is all about making friends with new people. And so the first thing new people are going to do before they accept your friend request is check you out.


Kathleen Celmins  14:45

So in that sense, LinkedIn is more of like a dating platform, then a social media channel, because you’re asking somebody to do something for you that you want them to do, and they’re gonna say if they want to. And then you. So after you’ve got your your profile done, then you get into targeting. And you can do it with Navigator. You don’t have to use the free LinkedIn for any for for most any of this, but you want to automate it so that you have an idea of who you want to target and who you want to connect with. The cool thing about targeting on LinkedIn, and as a digital marketer, I have spent many, many hours talking about ideal customer and target market and avatar. And what’s cool about LinkedIn is that you can test different markets.


Kathleen Celmins  15:40

Do you do want to talk to software agencies? Okay, great. Set up a search for software agencies. Did you want instead to see if marketing agencies would resonate with your message better, great, set up a new, a new search, and just see who connects with you, who ends up on your calendar in more frequency. And not only that, who you connect with better? If it’s hard to have a conversation with a marketing agency, but you’re really good at talking the tech stuff with the software agency, then there’s your answer. And you don’t have to think too much like blank page brainstorming about who you want to attract. You can test with humans who you want to attract. And I feel like that’s, that’s something that I think businesses should do more. First and foremost, go the outreach route first, and then reverse engineer your marketing around that. So that if it turns out that staffing agencies respond well to you and they close higher with you, then that’s what you do, you come back to it. And then your website becomes the whatever service for staffing agencies, for example.


Alastair McDermott  16:52

Right. And so that’s really interesting. I’m like to get into some of the detail with you on that, because you talked about targeting search, that makes a lot of sense. You talked about the data that that gives you, which you can then feed into the rest of your marketing, and that’s really smart. But what I’m interested in is knowing what are the steps between, okay, you do a search, and now you’ve got, you know, you’ve got the profiles of 100 business leaders in a particular niche in front of you. Like, what’s the next step? Are you using automation? And if, if so, like, what’s the message that you’re sending to those to start a conversation?


Kathleen Celmins  17:32

At first, I wasn’t using automation, but then it reminded me of back my sales job I had years and years ago, where I would look somebody up, and then talk myself out of connecting with them. Oh, they don’t want to hear from me, oh, I’m gonna bother that, you know, like, I don’t know, if anybody’s had that hesitation in in sales before where you’re just like, making decisions. But for people who have, don’t even know who you are, or what you represent, you’re just making decisions because you’re afraid to reach out, automation helps with that piece. Because then you’re not you yourself are not looking at anybody’s profile until you’ve reached out to them. And the outreach that works best is not, hey, I want to join your network. It’s, hey, I have something cool going on. I’m building a network of people of experts that are XYZ, do you want to be a part of that? I think there’s something cool we could do together. And when you change your initial outreach message, you will drastically increase the number of people who actually connect with you.


Alastair McDermott  18:48

So that that makes a lot of sense. What is it? What is the cool thing that you’re doing with this network of people so that the message that you’re sending isn’t disingenuous?


Kathleen Celmins  19:00

Right so you look at what you’re building because it’s not it you’re not just selling a product or a service or something else. You might be building a network of like minded people for future in person events, conferences, networking, it like live you know, if you wanted to target your local area. I’m building people who want to come together and have a beer every third Thursday of the month or whatever. So build something like that and then also say and mastermind and one-on-one coaching you know like add in whatever it is that you sell into a list of things that you may or may not have in the works but could down the line.


Alastair McDermott  19:49

Cool. Okay, that sounds interesting. And just because I do like to get some of the details what what actual tools are using for the automation piece?


Kathleen Celmins  19:58

I currently, so LinkedIn doesn’t love having automation tools. And so that the my answer right now is, as of this moment, I’m using a tool called will XE. And I can put in the chat where like, I have an affiliate link that gives you two free months of that tool. And then you so you can test it out. And you could do a free month of navigator and test out and see if that’s gonna work for you.


Alastair McDermott  20:33

In the show notes, I’ll get that from you after cool.


Kathleen Celmins  20:35

Yeah, perfect. I mean, otherwise, it’s not super expensive. It’s it, all of these and it does a good job staying within LinkedIn limits. LinkedIn has very strict limits on how many how much outreach. They don’t want to be the place where people spam. And, and because that’s what they are. That’s what people are using it for. I don’t know how many. How many emails or how many LinkedIn messages you’ve gotten this week, talking about appointment setters and 50 to 100 leads a day, are we you know, whatever, people,


Alastair McDermott  21:14

podcasts are the amount of cold cold podcast pitches I get is crazy. But yeah.


Kathleen Celmins  21:19



Alastair McDermott  21:19

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Okay. So. So really what we’re saying here is, so first off, you’re targeting specific niches and then testing, see what the what the the result in kind of feedback is from different niches because that helps you figure out and helps you position yourself, you are sending messages, which are not sales pitches, these are messages that are about asking somebody to maybe join something bigger to join a network that is maybe has a mission or a goal or is doing something slightly different. And then you’re automating that outreach, and then basically, you’re just waiting to see who replies to that. And then you’re starting a conversation with them, yeah.


Kathleen Celmins  22:07

Yeah. Yeah. And you’d be surprised at because people aren’t doing much on LinkedIn in terms of outreach, you’d be surprised at how easy and straightforward it is to stand out a signal against all that noise. Because when you’re saying like, Hey, you, LinkedIn said, we should connect. You’ve got something cool going on. I have something cool going on. I’m wondering if there’s a way we could connect. I think probably half my responses are sure. Here’s my calendar link. Right. Okay. Because to me, that’s the goal is not crazy. But my goal is not to spend as much time on LinkedIn as humanly possible to see to


Alastair McDermott  22:54

get into conversation people.


Kathleen Celmins  22:56



Alastair McDermott  22:57

Sorry, I have to ask just just one more question on the detail, because I do like to get all the details. Are you sending those as in mails, or as personalized connection requests or how you’re actually sending those messages?


Kathleen Celmins  23:08

Just out of curiosity, have you ever gotten an Email? That wasn’t pitchy? Spam? pickpocketing? Nonsense?


Alastair McDermott  23:15

No, I don’t think so.


Kathleen Celmins  23:16

Yeah, I would not recommend anybody used an email. Yeah. Yeah.


Alastair McDermott  23:21

Okay, that’s cool. So personalized.


Kathleen Celmins  23:24

It’s all just message request. So it seems to me like LinkedIn exists to sell you on LinkedIn premium. And LinkedIn Sales Navigator, you can do, I don’t think there’s any value and premium. So if you’re gonna go with something, go with Sales Navigator, it’s like $100 a month, you get a free month, you can test it out to see if it works. The thing that Navigator has that free LinkedIn doesn’t have is this little toggle box that says, active on LinkedIn. So you get a higher rate of acceptance.


Alastair McDermott  23:59



Kathleen Celmins  23:59

You’re talking to people who, because everybody has a LinkedIn profile, but not everybody logs in every day, you know, so you want you want, I think active is like has the has logged in in the last 90 days. So it’s like a low bar. But even so you, it allows you to narrow your search more. And I think that it’s useful when you when your targeting is not working, right. When you’re having conversations with people who are totally not ever going to buy from you. Do you think well, maybe I need to like, hone this in a little bit further, you know, but their LinkedIn has all that information you as when you have a LinkedIn profile, you talk about the size of your company. So if you target companies between 10 and 100 employees, that’s That’s data that’s just just exists out there.


Alastair McDermott  24:55

Yeah, the other thing for the kind of use for targeting just to get those as non active people as if they have a profile photo or not, typically people who were active will have a photo and people are not willing to. But yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of really interesting things because I’ve, I’ve done the paid LinkedIn navigator, Sales Navigator, and I’ve done on paid for a long time. I did actually do some automation a few years ago and nearly got banned. Because I was sending out surveys I was sending out, I was doing research. And so he’s sending out surveys to my audience to get information. And so I was sending it out cold cold pitching to take a two minutes, five page survey, when I say five pages, I mean, five questions. Two of them multichoice and two of them not multichoice. And then I would you like to sign up for my email list? It works really well in terms of connecting with people and getting information back. I got over 1000 responses. But LinkedIn did not like the the automation. So that was


Kathleen Celmins  25:57

Well, probably it didn’t like that you were sending them off of LinkedIn.


Alastair McDermott  26:01

Yeah. Yeah.


Kathleen Celmins  26:03

So when you’re posting in your feed, don’t send people off LinkedIn.


Alastair McDermott  26:10

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So


Kathleen Celmins  26:12

No one ever said don’t like you’re like, don’t don’t put a link to a blog post, don’t put a link to anything in your feed. You’re no one’s ever gonna see it.


Alastair McDermott  26:20

None of the, none of the social networks ever want you to leave their own app? So they don’t they don’t like offsite links. Okay, so is there anything else that I haven’t already asked you about, about this outreach that is particularly key and making it work?


Kathleen Celmins  26:38

Um, start thinking about your conversations as scripts. So if you’re having sales conversations, typically you’re following a script? I mean, maybe not. But but you should. And when you’re building your scripts, when you’re when you’re starting to communicate, you’re going to see that you’re you are more likely to say the same thing in the same way than not. So start keeping yourself as keeping a database of messages and scripts that work. Because ultimately, what would be awesome is if you didn’t have conversations with people until they showed up on your calendar, because you could put all this into an SOP and have an assistant do every single piece up until the point in which the call happens.


Alastair McDermott  27:30

Yeah, right. And then tell me a little bit about those conversations. Because the pitch to get them to this point, has not been about your actual services, it’s been about being part of something bigger or being part of some kind of network, something like that. Can you just tell me a little bit about how you actually take that and get around to it being a sales conversation?


Kathleen Celmins  27:54

Well, most won’t be right. So you’re, it’s more of a discovery on your part, where you’re, you’re determining whether this person is a good prospect for you, whether they’re a good referral partner for you, or whether they’re none, neither one of those things, and you’re going to know pretty quickly. And so, and ideally, most of those people in category three, won’t have made it to the sales call point, they might at first before you have it all nailed down. But um, but ultimately, you want to only have conversations with prospects or referral partners. And and when you get on the call, you just you just set it up as if it is a sales call. So the I don’t know what what scripts you or anybody listening to this is following. But when you when you set it up, and you ask like, hey, what, like, what prompted you to join? What are you working on in business? What’s going on, you’ll you’ll find out pretty quickly. If the problems that they’re talking about on a sales call are problems you can solve? And if they are great, that’s when you say like, Hey, I’ve got something for this. Do you want to hear about it? You know, because a good sales conversation is all about getting consent to pitch giving consent to move on? Is that okay? Is that okay? Is that does that sound right? You want them agreeing with you every step of the way. And then once they do, then they aren’t going to be mad. I don’t think that you should be sending out messages on LinkedIn that are like, Hey, let’s let’s have a virtual coffee. Because those are usually failed pitches. But if you set it up, right, people will know that they’re that this is a conversation of peers of business peers that could potentially do something together. So you get that initial message, right let’s let’s see if there’s something we can do together usually means like, is there a way we can work together?


Alastair McDermott  30:01

Right. Okay. Yeah. And thank you for going into detail. I know we really get into the weeds on that. But I think it’s, it gets really useful for people to, to know the exact details of that kind of stuff. And I do have one more real technical question. If you’re if you’re able to set the length of those calls, like, do you make it? 15 minutes? 20? Half an hour? Alan, Alan, do you make those?


Kathleen Celmins  30:22

Mine are 45 minutes, but always take that long.


Alastair McDermott  30:25

Yeah. Okay. And yeah, because the only issue that I have with that is this sounds like a lot of time to be spending on calls with people who are potentially not prospects.


Kathleen Celmins  30:37

Right. So you gotta get your your targeting down. And then there’s ways like, that’s a great problem.


Kathleen Celmins  30:47

And if they’re all super qualified, cool, let’s set them up into group sales conversation, so that we’re, we’re talking through the what I’ve got to offer, and then they can all join, and then it’s only an hour of my time instead of six or whatever.


Alastair McDermott  31:01

Yeah, I’d love to get more into the details. But we’ve only got five minutes. So I know you got to go at the top of the hour. So let me ask you about, about authority, because something I asked everybody about, what is the number one tip that you would give to somebody who wants to build authority.


Kathleen Celmins  31:19

I think people who have a lot of authority, make it really clear what it is they sell and how they can help people. I think we don’t have, we don’t show up as the authorities that we are when we’re just giving out good educational advice on all the social channels, we need to make more offers, we need to talk about the transformations and then get known as the person who can help other people with whatever it is, LinkedIn outreach, for example, for example. And once you do that, and once you start, start talking about your offers, you get more comfortable talking about, oh, PS, I have something to sell. And you stop giving away absolutely everything in exchange for no money.


Alastair McDermott  32:12

Yeah, absolutely. And just a shout out to Melissa, who is my publisher. For my book “Thirty-Three Ways Not To Screw Up Your Business Podcast”, Melissa is watching on LinkedIn and says hello, thank you great info. So thank you. So okay, I just like to ask about books because I’m a big reader. Is there a business book or resource that’s been important for you?


Kathleen Celmins  32:33

I have been reading “Breakthrough Advertising” a long out of print. Eugene Schwartz copywriting book.


Alastair McDermott  32:44

Classic. Yeah.


Kathleen Celmins  32:45

It’s a classic. It’s a gym, it was a million dollars, because it’s totally out of print. And all the all the examples are super dated. But the principles are exactly the same. Except for you can’t talk about how lucky strikes make you thinner. anymore.


Alastair McDermott  33:06

Cool. And then do you read fiction at all? Or


Kathleen Celmins  33:09

I read fiction?


Alastair McDermott  33:10

What kind of fiction?


Kathleen Celmins  33:13

I have one totally uninteresting party fact about me as I’ve read all of the Pulitzer Prize winners for fiction. And well, not this year, they I’m working on it. They gave they gave two away this year. So not yet. But I just finished “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow”. And it’s perfect. It’s such a good book that I have. I keep telling people like are you gonna listen to it or read it or what however you like to consume it? It’s about two friends who start a video game company.


Alastair McDermott  33:49

Wow, cool. Okay, well, Kathleen Celmins from the Well-paid Expert where where can people find you online?


Kathleen Celmins  33:59


Alastair McDermott  34:01

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show that this was like a masterclass in LinkedIn outreach. I really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge.


Kathleen Celmins  34:07

Yeah. Thanks for having me. This is really fun. Awesome. Thank you.

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