podcast, people, episode, guest, listening, record, interview, audience, audio, host, starting, headphones, authority, solo, bit, important, absolutely, talk, format, podcast episodes
Joe Casabona, Voiceover, Alastair McDermott
Joe Casabona 00:00
Now I get a couple of requests a day on people who want to be on my show. And I refer them all to a single page. It’s a forum where they can apply to be on the show, because I want to know a couple of things. I want to know what episodes have you listened to of my podcast that made you want to reach out. I want to know what value you can bring to my audience. Because most pitches are bad. It’s like, “Hey, I think I’d be a great guest for your podcast, because I’m amazing. Look at all of these things that I’ve done. Do you want me to be on your show?” And I’m like, you didn’t mention what value you could bring to my audience once. So when you’re vetting guests, I would say you know, at least check out their website, check out what they talk about. A good pitch will say I was recently on this show talking about this. So you can see how they are on the show if you want.
Welcome to The Recognized Authority, a podcast that helps specialized consultants and domain experts on your journey to become known as an authority in your field. So you can increase your reach, have more impact and work with great clients. Here’s your host, Alastair McDermott.
Alastair McDermott 01:04
So today, my guest is Joe Casabona. So I’ve known Joe for years now at this point. He started his career a long time ago, but 20 years ago as a freelance web developer, and he has recently been deep in the podcasting world. And actually, I bought one of his podcasting courses a while back, which was really interesting to just make sure that I kind of had my bases covered. So I know Joe from the web design world as well. So he has a wealth of knowledge about web development, podcasting, course creation. And I guess, Joe, you’re kind of like a podcast consultant these days. That’s how you come across to me. Is that true to say?
Joe Casabona 01:45
Yeah, I think that that is accurate. I’ve made a couple of pivots in my 20 years, but podcast consultant is the place I’ve landed.
Alastair McDermott 01:52
Yeah. So let’s let’s get in straight into podcasting, then. So like one thing that a lot of people who are listening to this, maybe are considering starting their own podcast in order to grow their brands, to become more well known as the as an authority in their field. Can we talk about that a little bit? Have you got any recommendations for people who are thinking about starting a podcast? What to consider?
Joe Casabona 02:13
Yeah, definitely. So I think the the first thing you need to think about is the goal of your podcast, right? Start with why is a book that’s often mentioned everywhere, forever, but it’s important to think, who am I going to talk to? And what’s the ultimate goal of my podcast. I think a lot of people get into podcasting as kind of like a hobby or because it sounds like it’s gonna be fun. And then they realize that it’s, it’s kind of a money suck, and they stopped doing it right. So first, figure out who you want your podcast to who you will, who you want to talk to in your podcast, and then plan out some contents because coming up with like, 10 episodes is probably easy. Putting out an episode a week is going to be really hard. That’s why most podcasts fail after seven episodes.
Alastair McDermott 02:57
Right? Okay. I think we’re at about 35 when people are listening to this. So I think we’re, we’ve beat that beat the initial trend, but we’ll see how long he’s done. Okay, so I think that people who are listening to this, if they’re considering seriously getting into a podcast, I think they will know like that they’ll have a goal. I want to promote my business, I want to get more sales. I want to grow my authority. I want to make relationships with clients. Can we talk about like, what it actually takes how much effort it takes to actually start that podcast? What kind of monetary investment, what kind of time investment?
Joe Casabona 03:31
Yeah, that’s a great question. I because I think you’ll have people who are like anybody can start a podcast, just record from your phone or whatever. But like, I don’t do that. I think that there’s for the audio, there’s a minimum necessary quality and you shouldn’t sound like you are recording in a bathroom stall. Right? So you know, you want at least a decent mic, you can get a decent mic for 100 bucks on Amazon. And then the I think the the bigger cost for you will be hosting, right? So you want audio hosting. You can do anchor for free, but don’t do that. Right? Because when a product is free, here are the actual products right?
Alastair McDermott 04:08
Joe Casabona 04:09
There are lots of hosts out there starting from $5 a month with Libsyn. Two I think generally there’s it’s like 19 bucks a month with costos which is the the one I use, but pick the one that that works best for you and your budget and your technical know how and then it’s so you’re probably looking at like two 300 bucks for the first year to get started. Honestly, you want this to decent microphone, you want good hosting. If you want a website. This is a question I get a lot, should I have it on a currently existing website? Or should I make a new website? I think if it’s a podcast that’s part of your brand, it should be on your website. If it’s a new show that you’re starting, have a dedicated show either way, have a super clear, have a single place where people can go for your show, right? So I think that you want to plan your content, get a decent microphone, get set up with hosting and have that main place, right? Because a lot of people will say get my show on Apple podcasts. At a recent research as we record this release data last week saying that 2% of people find new shows on Apple podcasts. Apple podcasts accounts for less than half of all podcast listeners now. So have your website and then they can subscribe wherever they want to. Right. So I think that’s really important. And then from there, it’s again, it’s plan your first few episodes, record a couple of demo episodes that you might not release, but you’ll just use to get started and kind of find your sea legs. And then from there, you’ll have your format and your your kind of mission. And the last thing I would say is, is be a few episodes ahead. Don’t start the week going, Oh my god, what am I going to talk about on my podcast this week? Because that makes it a grind, and it makes it more likely for failure?
Alastair McDermott 05:49
Yeah, absolutely. So there’s a couple of things there. He said, I have opinions on definitely make the podcast part of your website, party, your brand website, it will bring in a lot of traffic, a lot of SEO traffic to your website apart from other other factors, people checking out your podcast will see your brand and it’ll all be associated, I think it’s really important that you do it that way. And then a recording ahead of batching ahead. So as we say this, I’m actually doing a planning meeting tomorrow with Aiko who’s my assistant. And we’re doing a planning meeting tomorrow to plan our next next month. So we have four weeks of podcast episodes pre recorded at this point. And we’re just talking about recording the next five. So and that will include this one here. So this as we record this, now, this won’t be going live for at least five to six weeks. And so we tend to batch or we try to batch it in in four weeks at a go so that we spend one day a month on the podcast, you know, apart from the actual recordings. So I think batching is really important. And then the other thing that you just talked about format, because I’m really interested in that because I think it really, really makes a big difference which format you choose for the podcast because you’ve got these options. We talked about that a little bit. Oh,
Joe Casabona 07:00
yeah, absolutely. So I’ll start with the fact that I read a tweet recently that said, most people are doing podcasts wrong, because most podcasts, and I think that this is really important, especially if you’re trying to build your own authority, right, you’re not going to be building your own authority. If you just only have guests on the podcast, I’m not saying never have guests, that’s a great format. And it’s a great way for you to learn. I’ve learned, you know, I have 250 or something like that episodes in the tank, most of them are interviews. So you do want to provide value for your audience. But I try to sprinkle in at least once every five weeks a solo episode where I tell people about genuinely podcasting and and how they can improve their business. Right. The mission of my show is actionable tech tips for creators and small business owners. So how can I help them with my own experience and my own expertise, if you’re starting a show that is strictly for you to sell your services or your products or your coaching, I would say make it mostly solo shows, and have a guest on here and there maybe have a client on into until the client success story. But you gotta, again, that’s why determining why you’re starting a podcast is so important. Because if it’s I want to build authority, so that I can sell more consulting, having a guest on every week is not going to help you do that, really, because people are going to learn this person is the expert, the host is just asking really good questions.
Alastair McDermott 08:31
Yeah, no, the only place that and I do an interview show. I do. I think at this point, I’ll have done a bad one, I would say probably one solo every 10 episodes, and I need to up the rate of those solo episodes. The one place I would say that I would mildly disagree with you is you can make those conversations rather than interviews. And when you can make it more conversational, it can be a conversation between two peers, that can be a really great way of building your authority demonstrating your authority, particularly when you have a slightly different point of view, like I just had with what we’re talking about here. Right?
Joe Casabona 09:06
And you’re absolutely right, you again, as we record this, your episodes coming out in a couple of weeks on my show. And that was more or less what happened, right? We kind of flipped the script, you asked me a few questions, we got to talk about you and you and what you do a little bit. And then you asked me some questions about starting a course or a podcast. And so I think you’re absolutely right. Again, I think most people’s approach to interview shows are I have these questions. I’m going to ask them yeah,
Alastair McDermott 09:31
yeah. You’ve got to you’ve got to put a little bit more effort in I think, than that, particularly if it’s rote questions. And one thing that I’ve worked a lot on is trying to improve my interview technique and become a better interviewer. I think it’s it’s something I certainly haven’t perfected, but it’s something I think about a lot I try and learn about. So the other format that could be interesting for people who want to build authority, but who also want the relationship building part of interviews is you You can actually tack a solo segment at the start or the end of an interview. That could be another approach. I’ve seen some people use that my concern would be making the episodes just too long or in diluting the it diluting either your contribution or the guest contribution. So I haven’t decided to go that way. And I think I’m gonna go the way of, of doing solos. But that that’s some of the kind of the thought process that I was that I was thinking about how to approach this. So what other options have you seen people see people using with their podcasts with the format?
Joe Casabona 10:33
Yeah, great question. So there’s, you know, there’s, I think I lay out like five or so in my own course, where it’s a solo show, it’s a solo show, it’s a host co hosts show, it’s like a news related show, it’s interview and guest or it’s like a fiction or a kind of nonfiction drama based show, right? those last two probably don’t fit the mold of what we’re talking about here. But so this is an interview show, that’s an example of that, I think, Pat Flynn had has a pretty good like Smart Passive income is a good mix of interviews and solo shows. And then there are so there’s like upgrade, which is one of my favorite podcasts, which is like a news slash segment show, which I think they do a really good job of. So what my other my other podcast is called WP review. And that’s like a, that’s a segmented show where I’ll do 10 minutes of news, 10 minutes of some main segment, and then like five minutes at the end of a recommendation, and sometimes the segments and interview sometimes it’s not. But that’s that’s kind of like a segment did work. So
Alastair McDermott 11:41
let’s talk about a couple of those things you mentioned there. So an example of a co host show there’s there’s two examples, I can think of three examples I can think of one of those is to Bob’s from Blair Enns, David C. Baker. And that’s, we’ll include links for all the all these in the show notes. Another example is the business of authority from Rochelle Moulton and Jonathan Stark. And there’s another example, which I think is in hiatus, the moment is offline, ironically, from Philip Morgan, and Liston Witheral. But all of those are a regular co host pairing where they discuss topics. And actually, that strikes me as a really great way to build authority for both co hosts, because they’re both kind of in conversation demonstrating their experience, their expertise, that one strikes me as a really, really great format, if you can find the right person for it.
Joe Casabona 12:28
Yeah, definitely. And and if you’re going to have a co host, and chemistry is super important, right? And that’s why that’s why I’ll also recommend that you do a couple of demos, right? Because you do a couple of demos with a co host. And you’re like, Ah, this is weird. It’s awkward. We don’t play off of each other the right way. And then you can kind of readjust.
Alastair McDermott 12:48
Yeah, absolutely. And then so one other thing that I’ve done in the past is, I have a friend and former business partner, Alistair McBride. And I’ve actually asked him to come on and interview me a couple of times, one time at the very start in Episode One, just explained what the podcasts about and then when we did the rebrand. We did an episode about the rebrand. And so that’s another way is if you can get somebody to come on and interview you on your show. So like kind of a guest host. Yeah. So that’s something that so I mean, all of this is about, you know, in a in a kind of a nice way trying to demonstrate your credibility in your expertise, right. Yeah,
Joe Casabona 13:25
Right. Absolutely. Right, you you your goal, right, in establishing authority is to get people to know like, and trust you. And podcasting is a pretty intimate medium, right? Most people are listening with headphones, maybe they’re doing something else, but they’re mostly listening to you. And, and so it’s, it’s an easy way, when you get listeners, to establish that trust, it’s easy to get people to know like, and trust you because they feel like especially if you get like, not super personal, right? Like don’t start every episode with like, I’m having a bad day cuz like the bus drove by me and hit a puddle, and now I’m soaking wet. But if it’s like, Hey, you know, I mentioned that my wife and I are expecting our third in December, you know, that’s like a little personal information that I’ve shared on social media anyway, and it helps people get to feel like they really know me. And, and so it’s, it’s easier to establish that personal connection.
Alastair McDermott 14:19
Yeah. And the other thing is, I mean, both of us are wearing headphones, and I had somebody say they didn’t like to wear headphones, because it’s a bit dorky. And you know, it’s like, yeah, it may be it looks a bit dorky on the video, but I think it really does help with the audio quality because, you know, there’s there’s no noise cancellation, echo cancellation software running in the background because of that, you know, and because people are listening in their, in their, in their earphones, I think it’s you know, it’s up to us to try and respect that by doing the best that we can in terms of quality.
Joe Casabona 14:50
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll just I’ll just share a quick story here. I recently I’ve been I’ve been podcasting for seven or eight years and my current And shows on its fifth year. And very recently was the first time ever I got on a call with a guest and decided to just kill the interview before we started, because the guy was like recording from his couch built in microphone, no headphones. And I said, I said, Hey, you know, I have like a checkbox, right saying, I’ll use a good mic or a decent mic, and I’ll use headphones. And I said, I said, Do you have headphones, because I don’t use headphones. And I was like, I really like you need to use them. And he’s like, I’ve done a bunch of podcasts. And that’s never been an issue. And I straight up said, I’m like, Well, those podcasts don’t care as much about audio quality as I do. And he was like, um, he was very insistent on not using them. And I was like, well, then we’re gonna have to go our separate ways, because that’s how important the process and the quality is to me. And I’m not asking him to get like a 15 $100 Telefunken microphone, I’m asking him to put headphones on so that my voice is not on his audio. And I think that’s reasonable.
Alastair McDermott 15:58
There is another factor here, which is the quality of the audio actually influences how much you trust the information that you hear. So there’s a guy actually who I’ve booked in to interview on the podcast from USC. Now, I don’t actually know which college that is, is that Southern California? Us? I believe? So. Yeah. Yeah. So this guy called Norbert Schwartz, who did an an audio study where they tested different audio qualities. And so I’m really fascinated by this. And I don’t have much to talk about it. But basically, they found that when you play lower quality audio to people, they trust it less. And so, you know, trying to make it the best quality listening experience from a user experience point of view, but also from, like a trustworthiness point of view makes make sense to me, you know,
Joe Casabona 16:45
yeah, that’s, that’s incredibly interesting, right. And I, I believe it because, again, how, again, if you don’t need to sound like NPR, you don’t need to sound like you’re in a recording studio. But if you have, especially as the host, people are generally more forgiving of the guest. But if you’re the host, it shows that you give a crap, right? That you you cared enough to put some effort into this podcast so that it’s better and easier to listen to.
Alastair McDermott 17:11
And the other thing, and this is a little bit of behind the scenes for anybody listening to this, so we’re recording on a service called Riverside, rather than recording on zoom, which a lot of people use. And the reason why we’re recording on Riverside is because it will record both of our audios locally. And that’s really important for me, in particular, because sometimes my connection sucks, like actually right now, my connection sucks. And so what’s happening is, the riverside is actually disabled the video connection, so we can’t see each other right now. Or at least I can’t see Joe. And that’s because my connection isn’t so good right now, but it’s still recording me locally here. So even if Joe is hearing me a bit glitched out, it’s actually going to be pristine, on the on the podcast. So that’s why I use the service because you know, the connections can can be not so good sometimes, so so there are solutions out there to help with things like that. But I just thought I’d point that out. Because, you know, it’s been met a bit behind the scenes, but it’s it’s just something that might be might be useful for people to know that there are these types of services out there.
Joe Casabona 18:09
Yeah. And I think that’s so important, you know, my process for a long time, because I tried Zen caster at first and I wasn’t too keen on it, then there are some services that kind of charge, like by the hour, which that pricing doesn’t necessarily work for me because I do batch my episodes like so ardently, like I’ll do like 10 hours, 10 hours, one month, and then like zero hours, the next thing I’d rather just pay and know that like whenever I schedule a call, I can use it. So for a long time, I was showing my guests how to record with QuickTime or a sound recorder. And then at the end of the call, they automatically get an email with a Dropbox link so they can upload their audio, but I’m probably going to switch back to one of these services because it’s just easier.
Alastair McDermott 18:47
Okay, that’s audio quality. And we like we’re both podcasters. So we will agree, and hopefully people who are listening to this who are also podcast listeners would agree, you know, if you’re going to start a podcast, you really do your utmost to make sure that the audio quality is good. We talked about the formats and and you know, the different types of formats that could be useful for building your authority and the know like and trust factor, we did get so much into, you know, how to choose guests and vetting guests or, you know, that part of it is is that something you talk to people a lot about?
Joe Casabona 19:19
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, you know, in part, first of all, when I first started, I took almost anybody who wants to be on my show. And granted I reached out to I have a strong network. And so it was mostly people I reached out to now I get a couple of requests a day on people who want to be on my show, and I refer them all to a single page. It’s a form where they can apply to be on the show, because I want to know a couple of things. I want to know what episodes Have you listened to of my podcast that made you want to reach out I want to know what value you can bring to my audience because most pitches are bad. It’s like, Hey, I think I’d be a great guest for your podcast because I’m amazing. Look at all of these things that I’ve done. Do you want me to be on your show, and I’m like, you didn’t mention what value you could bring to my audience once. So when you’re vetting guests, I would say, you know, at least check out their website, check out what they talk about. A good pitch will say I was recently on this show talking about this. So you can see how they are on the show, if you want. And I think you want to look for a couple of things, right? Make sure they are in authority in the space that they say they are. Make sure that they can bring value to your audience without just selling them on a service. Because I’ve had that before. I’ve had people go like we’re trying to promote our event, can we be on your show? And I’m like, I have sponsorship for that. And then make sure that I like to make sure that they’re not just telling the same story on every podcast, you know, people do this, this podcast tour, and they sound candid, but it’s really a very rehearsed story that they’re telling.
Alastair McDermott 20:52
Just does that matter? I mean, if you like you see, if you go to a to a stand up comedian, two nights in a row, you’re gonna see exactly the same gig, right?
Joe Casabona 21:01
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. But the way I look at it is imagine if all of the comedy clubs in America live streamed all of their gigs, right? Then you would see, then you’d be like, Oh, man, like john Molina is playing at the the croc rock in Philly. And you watch that, and you’re like, oh, man, he’s playing at the Roseland Ballroom in New York City. And then you tune in, and it’s like, well, I’ve already seen this. So I’m not going to tune into this one. Right? When you’re doing your podcast, you want to give people a reason to listen, whether that’s, you know, it could be mostly the same, but you want that unique nugget that you want to promote and get people in the door that way.
Alastair McDermott 21:38
And one thing on this, I think it’s up to the host to get the guests the guests viewpoint, as it relates to the audience. I think that’s, that’s the host job is to make it relevant. You know, I mean, the guest should should be aware of that. And it should be told that beforehand, you know, this is the audience, this is what they care about. But I think that the host job is to kind of be tenacious about getting what’s important for their audience. I think that’s kind of like a responsibility of a good host. Yeah,
Joe Casabona 22:07
I agree wholeheartedly with that. I’ve had people come on my show. And they’re like, you know, this is, I don’t know, if I’m gonna find stuff to talk about or whatever. And I’m like, that’s my job, I should be asking you questions that you are qualified to answer. And I’m good at talking and having a conversation. And so this should be a conversation for you. I know what my audience wants, you know, perfect example, I had a great interview today with somebody. And we just talked about like her like ethos for starting a business. And I brought it back around to the actionable tech tips, right. But it was a really good conversation with I think, a very good exclamation point on the end, versus somebody who pitched me on a super developer II thing. And I’m like, my audience is not developers, even though I am on and he’s like, but like, this could benefit business owners, too. And I’m like, you are assuming my audience is only software development companies. And it’s not and you do some other cool things. But this topic is not good for my audience.
Alastair McDermott 23:04
Yeah. Okay. So we’ve talked about, you know, the things that you need good audio, starting with a goal in mind what you want to do picking a format, we talked about different types of formats, like you could have a solo show, one thing we didn’t mention about a solo show is, I think that you probably have to have shorter episodes. What’s your thoughts on that?
Joe Casabona 23:22
Yeah, I think just by I, generally, yes, my solo episodes are shorter. Because, you know, a long monologue is what
Alastair McDermott 23:31
what kind of time time are you talking about, like, you don’t have five minutes or 20 minutes? Or what’s what’s short today really,
Joe Casabona 23:37
like 15 to 20 minutes, versus a 40 to 60 minute interview? Because, you know, it’s there’s only so much. It’s not that there’s only so much you can say, but there’s only so much uninterrupted monologue that somebody can listen to. Right without getting bored. Yeah, I think
Alastair McDermott 23:54
how much of a solo should be scripted or outlined,
Joe Casabona 23:58
I think the whole thing should be outlined. I don’t script because I sound very robotic when I script. But yeah, when I do a solo episode, I have a document, I write the headlines, like the main points I want, I add the sub points. And then that allows me to like vamp a little bit, too, right? Where it’s, I get to the third point that I remember a story. I’m not going to lose my place in the script. I’m just going to throw this story in there. So but that all depends on your comfort level too. Right? If you are more comfortable scripting it because you know, you’ll get everything. The nice thing about a podcast is you can just read off the piece of paper in front of you, right?
Alastair McDermott 24:34
Yeah, if you’re that good. Yeah. Okay. So I think we covered You know, a lot of the really important stuff. What kind of mistakes Do you see people making with with their podcasts,
Joe Casabona 24:43
the biggest mistakes I see people making or thinking they can just kind of turn on a microphone and record without planning. I think that you need to planning especially now I don’t think the podcast market is too saturated, but there is competition. And so if you want to Stand out or reach your audience, I think you need to go a little bit deeper on on the content planning. I think most people don’t build their lists soon enough. I am most people. My podcast got very popular within the first six months of launching, but I didn’t, I didn’t start building my newsletter until two years after it launched. And I think that killed me. And then the last thing is, I don’t think enough hosts or enough podcasts have a clear call to action. So the common one, I’m guilty of this too. I’ll say thanks so much for listening, find all the show notes here. Make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, leave us a rating and review. Like us on the places share it with a friend. That’s too many things. That’s too That’s too many things. So I think someone’s call to action. First of all, I think that you should not specifically name Apple podcasts. I think that Apple podcasts is dropping in the market share for podcast listeners. First of all, it’s less than half now. And it doesn’t really help with discovery either. Edison research just put out something saying I think like 2% of people discover pod to discover podcasts, use Apple podcasts. So you’re locking yourself into like a platform that most people just aren’t on. So I think your call to action should be one of two things join my mailing list or subscribe to the show over at URL, your podcasts comm slash subscribe, whatever make it super easy. Or for all the show notes head over to podcast comm slash episode number where you’ll find everything we talked about you’ll be able to join the mailing list if you want to do that.
Alastair McDermott 26:46
Yeah, and speaking about episode numbers, how important is it to actually talk about episode numbers mentioned them in your mention them in your show notes. You know, like I have them set up in my in the podcast hosting so that you know it gets marked correctly in everywhere that picks up the feed. But I mean, do audiences need to know what episode number and episode is made? It will is not easy to say hey, you know the episode with Jocasta Bona about podcasting? You know Yeah,
Joe Casabona 27:13
I think if you’re talking about it colloquially, right? No one’s gonna be like, Oh, yes, of course, Episode 237 with blah, blah. But I say that the beginning and end of each episode because of the shownotes call to action, right? So all of my episodes are how I built that it slash and then the episode number because that is the easiest, most speakable way to get people to the show notes page, which is the canonical link for each episode. So all I’ll say it at the top so that people know if they’ve been listening for a while that they know the show notes episode now, or the show notes URL. And then I’ll mention the URL a couple of times throughout the interview, usually when they say a link that we want people to visit. Also, you can find that in all of the show notes over at how I built a slash 237 or whatever.
Alastair McDermott 27:57
Yeah, in terms of events, one of the mistakes is people don’t plan enough. So in terms of the planning, so some of the things we already talked about, you know, is have a goal have a purpose, you know, figure out the type of format, have some halfway decent hardware, like spend 100 bucks on a microphone. And I’m just wondering what else is there in the planning part that people need? Like planning out the content? I guess that’s going to be different depending on which format you choose, right? Yeah,
Joe Casabona 28:22
absolutely. And what I will do, generally two months before the end of a season, quote, unquote, so I take two breaks throughout the year, I take a break, mid June to mid July. And then end of December to like last two weeks of December, to the beginning of January. And about two months before that I will start planning the next 22 episodes or 24 episodes where I’m like, what’s the main I like to have an I’m an educator, so I like to have an overarching topic for the year if I can. And I think what are the big themes that we want to cover over these next 24 episodes? Who do I want to talk to? Where are my solo episodes going to be? What am I going to cover? And how can they reinforce the things that the guests have talked about? Because when people are listening to a podcast you probably only have one year right? You’re walking Alistar I listened to your episode with the author whose name is escaping me right now. Rob Yeah, Rob fits. I bought his workshop book after that. It was great. But you know, I was walking and I bought all his books
Alastair McDermott 29:29
and join his community so yeah,
Joe Casabona 29:31
really great episode. So but I was walking and smoking a cigar and like just kind of looking around right so it was probably easy if something especially something distracting happened, I maybe missed something. So I tried to reinforce throughout the episode, the main thing we talked about, and then when I do like a wrap up episode or I have my own solo episode, I try to relate previous episodes and reinforce what people are learning because I want them to take some action after each episode or after you know find the episode that really helps them with their business.
Alastair McDermott 30:02
So I guess that brings me into a question then about, you know, how much should we be producing the podcast? What I mean by that is like, how much editing should we be doing? Should like if we’ve got a guest on? Like, do we just record the whole episode with the guest? And just live to tape and just put it up online? Or should we add, like I do on this show, we add an intro and an outro. And we do that we do some editing of the content itself, some people will will record it live, live streamed, and then say, look, we live streaming recorded live, so we don’t edit it at all. Here it is. And then some people go like full on NPR mode, and they edit the heck out of the whole thing. So like, Where’s your feelings on this?
Joe Casabona 30:43
Right? Great question. It depends on the So first of all, I’m not a huge fan of just taking the whole live stream and uploading it right? Because to me, that says, I’m putting the minimum amount of effort possible into the show, that’s just me, what I do is I genuinely don’t wildly edit interviews, I tell my guests in the beginning, hey, this is not live. So if you want to reset or do something, we can just let me know. And I’ll make notes on those edit points. But I like keeping the whole interview kind of as is I will add a bumper to B to the beginning where I reinforced the main points, I will reinforce at the end what we talked about. And then I have like some bad music, you know, for the intro and the outro. But it really depends on what you’re going for here. If you know there are shows like cortex that is heavily edited, because they just kind of talk for four hours, and then edit it down to like an hour long episode, which is that’s their choice. That’s what they want to do you have shows like connected both of those shows are on the same network and share one of the hosts, which is less like that they make segments and they clean it up. But they’re mostly not editing out stuff. So generally, it really depends on what you’re going for. What I’ll do is during the interview, I’ll take notes, I’ll make edit points and edit points are needed. Or if like it’s a long tangent, but generally I’ll keep the content as is
Alastair McDermott 32:06
right, and who needs to do the NPR style. Who’s that useful for
Joe Casabona 32:11
that? I think it’s a like a real honest to goodness storyteller type of podcast, right? You and I are having a conversation that’s giving your audience actionable tactics, or actionable tips for starting a podcast to help become a recognized authority. But if I was having you on my show, to talk about the follies of launching a course to WordPress users, right, maybe we tell that story in a different way. And that’s when it’s like highly edited, because you might say something in the middle. That’s a really good way to open the show. And so that’s I think, when we need the NPR editing type stuff when you’re really crafting the narrative.
Alastair McDermott 32:52
Yeah. And by the way, that is something that we do with this show is we use that cold open technique. So what we’ll do is the editor, when they’re in in the editing sequence, they’ll be looking for a for a quote from you to take something that’s that’s interesting, and maybe slightly intriguing to take that quote, and then put that back at the start before the music rolls, just to try and hook interest right at the start with that cold open. So that is something that we do on this show. And I think it’s I think it’s one of those things that that can help to get people to listen to an episode where maybe the title didn’t sound so interesting. But then they hear that first snippet, so that that’s the one part of that NPR style that I would take. And it’s something you see in TV shows a lot as well.
Joe Casabona 33:41
Yeah, absolutely. And, and that’s solid, right? Because you’ve got 30 to 60 seconds to convince something, someone to listen to your podcast episode. So if you don’t hook them right at the beginning, they’re going to be out. And so I did that for a while. I’m thinking about doing that again, right? Because generally what I’ll do in my episodes is I’ll do the recap myself. And I’ll say something like and listen for when they tell us about blah, blah, and so that that kind of plants the same seed like oh, I gotta listen for blah, blah now, but the the actual quote from the person, especially if it’s enticing, right, if I say something with a cliffhanger, like, you know, people, people think sponsorship is the only way to make money, but there’s actually 10 ways to make money. And now people like what are the other nine ways to make money? So I think check out Joe’s Yeah. So, but again,
Alastair McDermott 34:26
which I will link to in the show notes. No, I’m serious. I really will. So okay, all of the stuff that we’ve talked about here. One thing that I I think that is really important to say is that starting a podcast is a hell of a lot of work. And I think that you should go into that with your eyes open. Even if you’re going to outsource a lot of the work, even if you’re going to hire a you know, hire a service that does all your show notes and stuff for you. There’s still so many moving parts to podcasts. So I think that’s just something that’s worth we’re talking about for a minute.
Joe Casabona 34:57
Yeah, absolutely. It’s a ton of work. If you if you do it the right way, right again, if if you’re just gonna like turn on the microphone and then talk and release it on anchor, right, like anchor has like that direct record to release, they started off as just a mobile app basically. But you know, I think that if you want to do it the right way to build your audience, it does take a lot of work. That said, you don’t need to start with our long episodes, Stuff You Should Know, which is one of the longest running most popular podcasts on the planet started with five to seven minute episodes. And they built up from there. And as they built a bigger audience and their parent company, which has changed like 400 times, I realized, hey, like, Hey, this is a good, this is a good program, and we should build upon it. Now their episodes are 40 to 50 minutes, and they have shorts, s s YSK. Shorts, I think they’re called, that are 15 minutes. So you know, make it a slow build, you don’t get to come out, you don’t get to you don’t get to come out the gate, like swinging for the fences. A single is just as good as a home run, just to get to the triple, I guess a home run still scores your run, but get on base first then think about scoring, I guess is what I’m really trying to say here.
Alastair McDermott 36:11
I love the metaphors. Okay, so so at to use a non baseball metaphor, you can dip your toe in the water a little bit before you kind of dive in. Yeah, okay. And I don’t want to scare people like, like, when I say it is a hell of a lot of work. It is a lot of work. And there’s a lot of moving parts. But you can you can automate a lot of it, you can set up systems and processes, you can hire people to help you, there’s a lot of services out there that will gladly take your money and take a lot of the heavy lifting off your off your place. And so you can do all that. But I still think like, you’ve still got to plan that out. And then you’ve still got to record the episodes. And you’ve still got to invite the guests, you’ve still got to, you know, maybe find a co host who has the right chemistry plus the right add knowledge and experience, which is very difficult as well. So there’s a lot of different different aspects of that. So, but at the same time, you’re creating a body of work that is out there that is in the public that is very accessible to people. And it’s an amazing way of building trust. I mean, the the you know that having people literally listening to you in their ears as they’re, you know, walking or driving or doing the dishes or whatever they’re doing. There’s great amount of trust in that. And, you know, and you’ve got to respect that as well, I think in your editing and your audio quality.
Joe Casabona 37:25
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is, is,
Alastair McDermott 37:28
I’m sorry, your content quality as well.
Joe Casabona 37:30
Yes. And and you know, the other thing is podcast episodes are not a one and done thing, right. I each month publish a blog post that is based on one of my previous episodes, right, so you can repurpose your podcast episodes into blog posts, YouTube videos like that recent research study, I think found that it’s either 30 or 50% of people discover podcasts on YouTube. On YouTube, which is bonkers. So put, you know, you can put that out as a YouTube video, you can take those clips, so clips and social media.
Alastair McDermott 38:04
Yeah, this is quite often called content repurposing. And I want to talk about this a little bit with you. So first off, let’s just talk about so we’re recording this, by the way, for anybody listening, we are recording this in video as well. And so I don’t have an editing process for the video right now. And I did try before I started, I did try to record them all in video, and edit and video and release them all. What I found was that it just took so long to do the editing.
Joe Casabona 38:30
Alastair McDermott 38:31
It was either very expensive for me to hire somebody else, or it’s very time consuming. And so I decided to Nix the video in lieu of just actually getting the podcast published because I kept pushing out the kind of the launch date. So have any experience with this show?
Joe Casabona 38:46
Yeah, I mean, here’s the thing, right, because I have video on usually from my podcasts because I like seeing the person, but I don’t release that video because doesn’t look great, right? Especially if you’re using zoom, it’s gonna downsample the video for streaming purposes. Most people don’t have a setup where their record like where they’re in front of the camera all the time, like I invested in my camera setup because I make YouTube videos too. So no, I don’t have I don’t have a good process personally for releasing the videos as well. What I do is, well, what my audio host does is puts a cover image against the audio and sends that to YouTube. Right? I’m going to improve this a bit after listening to this. I keep referencing this Edison research. The guy’s name is Tom Webster and he has a podcast called “I Hear Things”. And so it’s his latest episode, which is like the number one question I get in podcasting or something like that, but I’m gonna put a little more effort into it where I’m gonna put my face on the thumbnail instead, right? Because faces on YouTube are the thing that the algorithm grabs. I’m going to go in every week after it’s auto posted and update the show notes in the description. So that’s a little better for the YouTube algorithm. But it’s it’s another place for your content to So even if you’re not pushing the video version of the conversation out, which, again, I’m like, not super keen on doing unless you and the guests are in the same room, because then you can control the set a little bit, you can still make improvements without without that live video aspect.
Alastair McDermott 40:16
Yeah, the other thing that I’ve seen people do is just take snippets from the show. So you find, you know, the 3060 or 92nd clip of a conversation, and you get the two Talking Heads side by side, you know, you put a frame over them with your branding and stuff, maybe you add the subtitles for it. And then you can take that like as a square video for Instagram, or Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever, and SEO are taking the talking heads from the from the recording, but because you’re kind of producing it and adding the frame with the podcast logo and stuff, it just adds a bit more kind of production value to it, and kind of perceived value. And I have seen that done. And it’s something that’s that’s the only reason why I’m recording the video right now is so that we can go back and edit those later. I think that we will, we will do that at some point. The other thing I’ve experimented with Joe and I don’t know if you’ve done this is creating audio brams which is where you take the audio and you put like a moving sound wave over it. I have found that that doesn’t have a great like watch race people don’t tend to watch them. And the experience with that.
Joe Casabona 41:23
Yeah, you know, I’ve tried using them. I found the same you know, you have like headliner put out a study saying it’s like 60% more engagement but headliner also makes audiograms like that’s the thing. So I don’t know if the effort to reward is there. The Harry Morton of lower street tweeted yesterday, like if you’re gonna do audiograms you kind of got to do them right? Like they’re their own little standalone videos. And he posted like Gary Vee what you know, Gary Vee is Gary Vee. So he has the resources to do whatever he wants. But I think I think that is and you kind of outlined it the same way right? audio Graham’s people kind of know what they are now. So okay, so I’m just gonna listen to a clip. It’s not really a video, it’s just me listening to something. If you have a video, that’s eye catching up the guests talking, right, then I think, yeah, that’s a little more eye grabbing. So I think if you’re gonna do video, even for these little clips, you can do it that way. And you know what? Now it’s like that format is on Twitter and tik tok and Instagram, and now YouTube with YouTube shorts. So again, you’ll get a lot of mileage out of it across a bunch of social networks.
Alastair McDermott 42:27
So that kind of leads me into how to be a good guest, or how to be an effective guest. And let me start, because I know you have a lot of stuff saved by this, but I just want to talk about something that you just mentioned, you said that a lot of guests don’t have like a good camera and a good setup. I think that it’s important that if you’re guesting on podcasts, that you have a good microphone, that you have a good camera, you have a good background, I think that’s that’s important in building your credibility and authority now, so I just want to do Do you agree with that? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Joe Casabona 42:57
I wholeheartedly agree with the microphone bit, right. Again, if we go back to the no headphones person, they hired like one of these podcasts booking agents to reach out to people to get them on the show. And so I’m thinking you’re gonna pay 700, maybe 1500 bucks a month for these people to get you on shows. And you’re not even going to invest in headphones and a microphone. Like, not only does that leave a bad taste in my mouth, but again, if you sound like you’re recording in a bathroom stall, that does lower your credibility. So I think yes, if you’re going to go if you’re going to go on a podcast tour, and you’re going to do a lot of guessing which one of the best ways to grow your podcast is to go on other people’s podcasts? If you’re going to do that, then yeah, I think you need to invest in at least a decent microphone. And headphones. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, by the way,
Alastair McDermott 43:44
my headphones are $15 Sony headset, headphones that I bought in, like I bought in a catalog store. And so they’re, you know what, they work just fine with it. And they look they look okay, as well.
Joe Casabona 43:55
Yeah. The benefit, the benefit of the headphones is I mean, I’m wearing like really nice, like studio monitor headphones, because I’m a dork. But the the benefit of the headphones is not for the 100%. It’s not for like the person you’re talking to the sound amazing. It’s so that your voice doesn’t show up on their recording, because that makes editing so much harder.
Alastair McDermott 44:17
But But Joe, if you use zoom, it doesn’t show up.
Joe Casabona 44:20
Is that true? Is that are you messing with me right
Alastair McDermott 44:22
now? No, no. I am messing with you when I say that. Yeah, I mean, it doesn’t show up on zoom, because they use echo and noise cancellation, which messes with the audio. Right? So I mean, that’s the that’s how it works. Yeah,
Joe Casabona 44:36
if you want the best possible, you use a service like Riverside, like we’re using here, or each guest records their own side of the audio on quick time with headphones, and I’ve had people who are like, no, I use this app that doesn’t work. And I’m like, I’ve been doing this for nearly a decade. It doesn’t work as well as you think it does. And the podcast host was just too polite to reach out to you and be like, hey, You messed up my audio,
Alastair McDermott 45:01
it is very difficult when you are a podcast host, and you have a guest, particularly someone who is like a book author or somebody like that you really want to interview them. And if they show up with poor audio, you’re going to record it anyway. Yes. You know, like you are, you know, and I would much prefer and I know that some podcasters a pre COVID used to send out, like, send out a microphone to people, like post it out. Some people say, Hey, I know John Lee Dumas says, you know, go buy the $35, you know, Logitech h 390, or whatever it’s called, which is a really good USB headset. And that is really good sound for what it is. And it’s 35 bucks. And he’s saying he says, if you don’t show up with at least that quality, you’re not coming on the show, which, you know, I think I think is a you know, if you’ve got a popular show, yeah, sure, you can see that, you know, right. But I think that, you know, you got to like if you want to put yourself out there and you want to come across as as credible, authoritative, an expert in your fields, you want people to trust you, you want people like you, you got to put some effort into, you know, coming across well, and personally, I think that’s way more important than, you know, wearing wearing a suit and tie. Yeah, so
Joe Casabona 46:13
yeah, absolutely. And and, you know, like, it’s, it depends on where you’re putting the onus, right, if I’m asking somebody to come on my show, because I think there’ll be a value of value to my guests, I will make certain concessions. And there are apps now that like help, like D scripts just released their studio sound in beta. And it works like shockingly, well, like sometimes I don’t believe what I’m hearing, but you’re still that’s still a trade off. If someone is again, you know, people reach out to me and they’re like, I want to come on your show. You gotta you gotta make me feel like you care about my audience. So at least headphones and a minimally decent mic will make me feel that way.
Alastair McDermott 46:50
Yeah. And like it This isn’t because we’re being really nerdy about the sound hardware. This is because we want to give people a really great experience when they’re listening to the podcast, or watching the clips, you know, we want people to to see a nice clean video, we want people to have, like audio that doesn’t, you know, you don’t have to turn it up super loud, because it’s so fuzzy, and then you get blasted out of it, you know, we’re just trying to make the best possible user experience because, you know, because you care about your audience. I mean, that’s why you do it, right. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I think I think we talked enough about that. I’m, I am a big fan of you know, just bringing bring your A game, you know, when you when you turn up as a guest. So let’s talk about the other parts of that, like, apart from, you know, your your microphone and stuff. What like, what else do you should you be doing? If you’re turning up as as a guest to be an effective? Guest?
Joe Casabona 47:40
Yeah, I think so. I think that you should listen to at least part of an episode of a show that you’re going to come on know the format know how it works know, kind of what’s expected that way you’re not blindsided, right. Like I know, a lot of podcasts like to end with like the same question that they asked every guest or whatever. I was totally blindsided because I didn’t listen to the whole episode on a recent on a recent guest. And I feel like I gave kind of a crappy answer, which is not the like, that’s the recency effect, where that’s like, the last thing I leave a guest with, maybe it wasn’t maybe I was in my head too much. But you know, at least scrub through an episode, listen to it on two times speed, skim through the transcript, be at least a little bit prepared. And then, and this is part of the guests job to know what you’re talking about, right? I’ve had people who are like, now maybe you and I have done this, right. But again, we have kind of a we have a relationship. We’ve known each other for multiple years, but I’ve had people apply to be on my show. And they’re like, I’ll talk about whatever you want me to talk about. And I’m like, No, what are what if you’re asking to come on my show, you need to know the thing that you’re most qualified to talk about. I’m gonna vet that. But this is not just like two buddies talking. So be prepared and understand what you’re going to talk about when you come on the show. And then the last thing and this is for you, right, as the guests have a page on your website that you can send listeners to that is specific for them. So for example, can I can I do my link here right now?
Alastair McDermott 49:07
I don’t want to feel like I’m pitching Joe. We’re, we’re just about to wrap up this episode. So this is a perfect time for you to do yours. So tell everybody then the question is, the question is always every podcaster under the sun. So guest name. Thank you so much for coming on. Can you tell our listeners where they can learn more about you?
Joe Casabona 49:27
Absolutely. So we’ve talked about a lot of podcasting stuff here. If you want to learn more about me, you can go to kastamonu.org slash tra. That’s tra for The Recognized Authority, and you’ll get some more information about me. You’ll have a link and a special discount to my podcast, liftoff course, and you’ll have an opt in for 52 podcast episode ideas. That’s kasturba.org slash t Ra.
Alastair McDermott 49:50
That is awesome. Joe, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate you coming on. Let’s do it
Joe Casabona 49:56
again. My absolute pleasure, Alastair, it’s always great talking to you. Thanks. for having me on.
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